Ted Wilson responds to PUC constituency meeting

A special constituency meeting was held Sunday afternoon, August 19, 2012, in Southern California. On the agenda were two votes: 1) to change the bylaws of the Pacific Union, allowing the union to be out of sync with General Conference regulations; 2) to approve ordination to the pastoral ministry without regard to gender.

The bylaws vote needed a two-thirds margin to pass. This vote failed by one percent, consequently making an ordination vote irrelevant.

The executive committee continued the meeting to “discuss and vote on the ordination issue.” Though without teeth, the union voted 79 percent to 21 percent to recommend women’s ordination. This ordination vote did pass its 51 percent margin, yet the union still cannot ordain women due to the failed bylaw vote. To do so would put the union out of compliance with its own bylaws which still state:

“All the policies, purposes and procedures of this Union shall be in harmony with the working policies and procedures of the North American Division and the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.”

In conclusion, the union president Ricardo Graham stated, “I do not think this is a ‘win’ … but we have expressed our opinion through our vote.”

The response from the General Conference officers is as follows:

The 17 million members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church are united through the Holy Spirit in a common commitment to Christ and the truths of His Word, an urgent end-time mission, and a divinely inspired church organization. A threat to any one of these places at risk the unity of the church. It is for this reason that the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church affirms the Pacific Union’s action not to change their Constitution and remain in harmony with the world church. This represents a step in a positive direction. The General Conference leadership is seriously concerned, though, with the Pacific Union’s subsequent action to preempt the collective decisions of the world church regarding ordination. Unilateral actions contrary to the voted decisions of the global church seriously threaten the unity of the church.

The world church recognizes the vital role that women play in the life, ministry and leadership of the church and encourages their active involvement. Because the General Conference Administrative Committee has already voted and commenced the most comprehensive study in our history on the subject of ordination, which will include the study of the ordination of women, the action of the Pacific Union to grant Ministerial Ordination “without respect to gender” preempts the process voted for the current study of ordination theology and practices by committing the Pacific Union Conference to a particular outcome before the study-and-discussion process is completed. It also expresses a lack of trust in the integrity of the general process accepted and voted by General Conference administrators and personnel, division officers, and pastors and lay members from all the world divisions who serve on the General Conference Executive Committee, which includes the presidents of the 125 unions representing the world church, regarding how we approach common challenges.

Further, the action is contrary to General Conference Working Policy and sets aside the 1990 and 1995 decisions of the General Conference in Session respecting the practice of ordination. The action taken by the Pacific Union Conference represents a serious threat to the unity of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, and thus, at its next meeting in October 2012, as indicated in another recent public statement by General Conference officers and division presidents, the General Conference Executive Committee will carefully review the situation and determine how to respond. In the spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the officers of the General Conference appeal to all entities, organizations, and individuals, including the Pacific Union Conference, to refrain from independent and unilateral decisions and from implementing any such actions.

It is our prayer that the “oneness” Jesus prayed for in His great intercessory prayer in John 17, and that which the disciples experienced in Acts 2, will be manifest in His church today. We pray that the result of this “oneness” will be lives transformed by His grace, united in His love, and empowered by His Spirit to proclaim His last-day message in all of its fullness to a perishing planet, hastening the glorious return of our Lord.

Ted N. C. Wilson, President
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

G. T. Ng, Secretary
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

Robert E. Lemon, Treasurer
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

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  • Stephen Ferguson

    I really do pray and hope that Pres Wilson acts more like Peter, the peacemaker of Acts 15, rather than the conservative James or the liberal Paul. We need a Peter to calm everything down, not to put more gasoline on the fire!

    • Dwayne Turner

      Stephen,
      You hope that Elder Wilson will act as a “peacemaker”? Have the multiplicity of WO supporters played any semblance of the role of peacemaker? The peacemaker role rested on the shoulders of the leadership of the North German, Mid-America, Columbia, and Pacific Unions. Were you concerned about them playing the role of “peacemaker”. The ownice and burden of playing the role of “peacemaker” was in the hands of Ricardo Graham this past Sunday and Dave Weigley a few weeks ago. They showed absolutely no interest in unity as they “pressed forward” with their ungodly agenda.
      Your call for a “peacemaker” is similar to the call of Elder Graham to “move forward” in finishing the work at the end of the meeting. “Moving Forward” meant to except the vote, put it out of your mind, and get on with the work of the Lord. In short, it is a call to acceptance. Let me be clear, there are many, including myself, who will never accept women as Elders and Pastors. Simply because the Blble links both positions together and gives a “male only” criteria. No amount of study will change that!!!
      The call for “peace” and to “move forward” is really a plea for “no backlash”. Let me be even more clear, nothing short of the removal of the Leadership of the various rebellious unions should be accepted! Placing the constituent members of the various Unions in a position where they must either accept the vote of the Union or the votes (1990, 1995) of the G.C. is an absolute abdicatcation of the trust placed upon these men to lead the work in their respective areas.
      G.C. Brethren, if you read this….
      The time to act is now! Why wait for October to deal with this? A special session of the G.C. Executive Committee should be called just as special sessions of these various Unions were called! These leaders should and must be dealt with. Read and read again how God dealt with issues in the Old Testament. Often, rebellion was follwowed by severe punishment. I would concede that the “Israel was under a Theocracy” angle certainly dictates different punishments than was experienced in Israel of old however, dealing with an issue decisively is still called for today. Moses asked the question, “Who’s on the Lord’s side?” and Elijah said, “How long halt ye between two opinions?” Those two appeals to Israel to turn from their wicked ways was followed by death to those who didn’t repent. If God feels that strongly about His people being lead astray, at the very least, there should be a removal from the offices of trust these Union leaders hold.
      Those who led God’s people into the “Holy Flesh” error of 1899-1901(II Selected Messages) were dismissed from their posts; Including R.S. Donnell (Indiana Conference President), The Indiana Conference Executive Committee, and S.S. Davis, the Pastor who introduced the error into the church.
      I pray that appeasement will not be the order of the day, but the honor and vindication of the God will be preimment in the minds of the Brethren as they act on this rebellion.

      • Dwayne Turner

        Stephen, You hope that Elder Wilson will act as a “peacemaker”? Have the multiplicity of WO supporters played any semblance of the role of peacemaker? The peacemaker role rested on the shoulders of the leadership of the North German, Mid-America, Columbia, and Pacific Unions. Were you concerned about them playing the role of “peacemaker”? The onus and burden of playing the role of “peacemaker” was in the hands of Ricardo Graham this past Sunday and Dave Weigley a few weeks ago. They showed absolutely no interest in unity as they “pressed forward” with their ungodly agenda. Your call for a “peacemaker” is similar to the call of Elder Graham to “move forward” in finishing the work at the end of the meeting. “Moving Forward” meant to except the vote, put it out of your mind, and get on with the work of the Lord. In short, it is a call to acceptance. Let me be clear, there are many, including myself, who will never accept women as Elders and Pastors. Simply because the Blble links both positions together and gives a “male only” criteria. No amount of study will change that!!! The call for “peace” and to “move forward” is really a plea for “no backlash”. Let me be even more clear, nothing short of the removal of the Leadership of the various rebellious unions should be accepted! Placing the constituent members of the various Unions in a position where they must either accept the vote of the Union or the votes (1990, 1995) of the G.C. is an absolute abdication of the trust placed upon these men to lead the work in their respective areas. G.C. Brethren, if you read this…. The time to act is now! Why wait for October to deal with this? A special session of the G.C. Executive Committee should be called just as special sessions of these various Unions were called! These leaders should and must be dealt with. Read and read again how God dealt with issues in the Old Testament. Often, rebellion was followed by severe punishment. I would concede that the “Israel was under a Theocracy” angle certainly dictates different punishments than was experienced in Israel of old however, dealing with an issue decisively is still called for today. Moses asked the question, “Who’s on the Lord’s side?” and Elijah said, “How long halt ye between two opinions?” Those two appeals to Israel to turn from their wicked ways was followed by death to those who didn’t repent. If God feels that strongly about His people being lead astray, at the very least, there should be a removal from the offices of trust these Union leaders hold. Those who led God’s people into the “Holy Flesh” error of 1899-1901(II Selected Messages) were dismissed from their posts; Including R.S. Donnell (Indiana Conference President), The Indiana Conference Executive Committee, and S.S. Davis, the Pastor who introduced the error into the church. I pray that appeasement will not be the order of the day, but the honor and vindication of the God will be preeminent in the minds of the Brethren as they act on this rebellion.

        • Bro. Shorter

          AMEN! I pray our leaders will not only be dealing with this issue decisively but also very speedily. Thanks for making it plain.

        • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

          Amen, Bro. All those Union Leaders should be fired on the spot. This a rebellion similar to what happened at Baal Peor.

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            I agree completely. The first 4 to go should be Penick, Graham, Caviness and Pedersen because of their total lack of any leadership in supporting our SDA beleifs, and allowing this farce to continue under their watch.

          • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

            Is it permissable for the GC to have employees in open rebellion against their own policies? How was this vote allowed?

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            I don’t know what the GC can or will do. I do know, under Paulsen and Schneider, they did virtually NOTHING! Schneider did come out to LSU once, regarding the “evolution as fact” debacle, and supposedly told Wisbey to “Love Jesus.”
            I hope and pray that Ted Wilson and the rest of the GC executives will have the backbone to stop this rebellion. And, the “head” meaning the leaders, as I’ve mentioned, should be the first to go.
            One of the first things I would suggest after is to have Jerry Page come back as PUC President. I know that won’t happen, but we lost a great man when they hauled him off to the GC.

      • Brother Shorter

        AMEN! I pray our leaders will not only be dealing with this issue decisively but also very speedily. Thanks for making plain.

      • Stephen Ferguson

        Such action will end in schism – the very thing President Wilson claims he is trying to avoid.

        As for the Holy Flesh Movement, according to Dr Pipim, its modern incarnation is Deliverance Ministries (aka Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare). It is running rampant in the SDA Church and the GC is doing nothing about it.

        • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

          Perhaps there will be no schism, as simply put, once you leave the bible foundation, where else can you go? Why treat the sabbath so special either, or tithing or jewellery etc etc. I just think that most SDAs are living worldly and don’t understand this issue as the Bible and God’s values going first yet, so thats why the GC has called for a study into it. May we follow the Bible and not our cultural biases. Shall mortal man be more just than God? Job 4:17

    • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

      The Conservatives didn’t start this fire, the liberals did! They made the unilateral move to ordain women regardless of the wishes of the world church. What we have in the NAD is way too many Baby Boomer Union Presidents, who much like Aaron in the OT, when he committed flagrant sin in making the Golden Calf.

  • Mark

    Some who in Paul’s day listened to the truth, raised questions of no vital importance, presenting the ideas and opinions of men, and seeking to divert the mind of the teacher from the great truths of the gospel, to the discussion of non-essential theories and the settlement of unimportant disputes. Paul knew that the laborer for God must be wise enough to see the design of the enemy, and refuse to be misled or diverted. The conversion of souls must be the burden of his work; he must preach the word of God, but avoid controversy. {GW 311.4}
    “Study to show thyself approved unto God,” he wrote, “a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.” [2 Timothy 2:15, 16.] {GW 312.1}
    The ministers of Christ today are in the same danger. Satan is constantly at work to divert the mind into wrong channels, so that the truth may lose its force upon the heart. And unless ministers and people practice the truth and are sanctified by it, they will allow speculation regarding questions of no vital importance to occupy the mind. This will lead to caviling and strife; for countless points of difference will arise. {GW 312.2}
    Men of ability have devoted a lifetime of study and prayer to the searching of the Scriptures, and yet there are many portions of the Bible that have not been fully explored. Some passages of Scripture will never be perfectly comprehended until in the future life Christ shall explain them. There are mysteries to be unraveled, statements that human minds cannot harmonize. And the enemy will seek to arouse argument upon these points, which might better remain undiscussed. {GW 312.3}
    A devoted, spiritual worker will avoid bringing up minor theoretical differences, and will devote his energies to the proclamation of the great testing truths to be given to the world. He will point the people to the work of redemption, the commandments of God, the near coming of Christ; and it will be found that in these subjects there is food enough for thought. {GW 312.4}
    In time past there have been presented to me for my opinion many non-essential, fanciful theories. Some have advocated the theory that believers should pray with their eyes open. Others teach that, because those who ministered anciently in sacred office were required, upon entering the sanctuary, to remove their sandals and wash their feet, believers now should remove their shoes when entering the house of worship. Still others refer to the sixth commandment, and declare that even the insects that torment human beings should not be killed. And some have put forth the theory that the redeemed will not have gray hair—as if this were a matter of any importance. {GW 313.1}
    I am instructed to say that these theories are the production of minds unlearned in the first principles of the gospel. By such theories the enemy strives to eclipse the great truths for this time. {GW 313.2}
    Those who in their preaching pass by the great truths of God’s word to speak of minor matters, are not preaching the gospel, but are dealing in idle sophistry. Let not our ministers spend time in the discussion of such matters. Let those who have any question as to what they should teach, any question as to the subjects upon which they should dwell, go to the discourses of the great Teacher, and follow His lines of thought. The subjects that Jesus regarded as essential are the subjects that we are to urge home today. We are to encourage our hearers to dwell upon those subjects which are of eternal moment. {GW 313.3}
    When at one time a brother came to me with the message that the world is flat, I was instructed to present the commission that Christ gave His disciples, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations: …and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end.” [Matthew 28:19, 20.] In regard to such subjects as the flat-world theory, God says to every soul, “What is that to thee? follow thou Me. I have given you your commission. Dwell upon the great testing truths for this time, not upon matters that have no bearing upon our work.” {GW 314.1}
    Workers for God should not spend time speculating as to what conditions will prevail in the new earth. It is presumption to indulge in suppositions and theories regarding matters that the Lord has not revealed. He has made every provision for our happiness in the future life, and we are not to speculate regarding His plans for us. Neither are we to measure the conditions of the future life by the conditions of this life. {GW 314.2}
    To my ministering brethren I would say, Preach the word. Do not bring to the foundation wood, hay, and stubble,—your own surmisings and speculations, which can benefit no one. Subjects of vital importance are revealed in the word of God, and these are worthy of our deepest thought. But we are not to search into matters on which God has been silent. {GW 314.3}
    When questions arise upon which we are uncertain, let us ask, What saith the Scripture? And if the Scripture is silent upon the question at issue, let it not be made the subject of discussion. Let those who wish for something new, seek for that newness of life resulting from the new birth. Let them purify their souls by obeying the truth, and act in harmony with the instruction that Christ has given. {GW 314.4}
    The only question asked in the judgment will be, “Have they been obedient to My commandments?” Petty strife and contention over questions of no importance has no part in God’s great plan. Those who teach the truth should be men of solid minds, who will not lead their hearers into a field of thistles, as it were, and leave them there. {GW 315.1}
    The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption,—the Son of God uplifted on the cross. This is to be the foundation of every discourse given by our ministers. {GW 315.2}

    • Stephen Ferguson

      I agree with all those. I don’t think any of them are basis for upholding Papal Tradition against the clear intent of scripture by being against WO.

      • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

        You use Papal Tradition to make it seem that SDAs are following Rome, who are against WO, when in fact we view Rome as the Antichrist. SDAs agree with Rome on some of its doctrines and some we do not. The strong evidence that explodes your position is simply the fact that Jesus prayed all night in prayer before he laid hands in ordination on 12 men, who were far being perfect, but were men who He entrusted the NT church with as their first leaders. If it was God’s plan for women to hold those position he would have laid hands on at least a few godly women, but He did nothing of the sort. Therefore, we must follow the model that He left us till He comes back the second time.

        • Melva Evans

          Brooks, my friend, the last portion of your statement is, at best, a presumption. Another presumption – mine – is that Scripture cannot possibly contain 100% of all of the teachings and doings of the Christ while on this earth. We must glean from Scriptural content, from beginning to end, how God intends for us to treat each other. Some things are not specified; yet, we can be certain of its correctness by examples given throughout the Bible.

          • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

            Nice to see you chiming in Melva. It is presumption for the church to go ahead change a long standing teaching in the Christian when we have solid evidence that is to be done. I believe that Jesus perfectly did his Fathers’ will while on Earth as a man. If Jesus fasted and prayed all night before He laid hands on the 12 Apostles, how could anyone think that Jesus didn’t do God’s will in the laying on of hands in ordination of the 12 male Apostles? Additionally, any changes that Jesus put into place before His death were sealed at his death, and could not be changed. Therefore, if there is no change in a teaching it continued on into the NT. The Sabbath is a good example, Jesus kept it up till his death, and did not put into place any new teaching regarding Sunday as being holy, therefore the Sabbath Commandment continues on from the OT to the NT, and forever. But, getting back to WO, I would be a fanatically pro WO, it Jesus has left us a solid example of Him laying hands on even one women and included her among the Apostles.

        • http://www.facebook.com/muze.malongoza Muze Malongoza

          Tell them Brother!!

        • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

          Brother Potter, to address your point, please be patient with me as I ask a few questions.
          Some time back EG White stated that, (paraphrasing) “Blacks are not to preach to Whites and whites to blacks….” Do you agree with this statement from the PEN of INSPIRATION or has God chaged His mind on this matter? If so why and if not, why not?
          hoping for a speedy reply

      • http://www.facebook.com/kingsmessengers Kings Messengers

        Wish people commenting [especially supporting Women Ordination] would sign with their profiles so that one can view and see how to help them, as some may be sincere ‘visitors’ and we are assuming they are exposed to quite some reading especially on SOP. This is especially evident in being adamant on ‘it is being fair”, period’ and shunning Scriptures as basis.

      • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

        I guess the doctrine that Jesus died for our sins is also a papal tradition that SDAs are following, and can now be discarded…

        • Scott Eakins

          That’s silly. Papal tradition is exactly that – tradition, not Biblical teaching.

  • Mark

    Human minds vary. The minds of different education and thought receive different impressions of the same words, and it is difficult for one mind to give to one of a different temperament, education, and habits of thought by language exactly the same idea as that which is clear and distinct in his own mind. Yet to honest men, right-minded men, he can be so simple and plain as to convey his meaning for all practical purposes. If the man he communicates with is not honest and will not want to see and understand the truth, he will turn his words and language in everything to suit his own purposes. He will misconstrue his words, play upon his imagination, wrest them from their true meaning, and then entrench himself in unbelief, claiming that the sentiments are all wrong.

    This is the way my writings are treated by those who wish to misunderstand and pervert them. They turn the truth of God into a lie. In the very same way that they treat the writings in my published articles and in my books, so do skeptics and infidels treat the Bible. They read it according to their desire to pervert, to misapply, to willfully wrest the utterances from their true meaning. They declare that the Bible can prove anything and everything, that every sect proves their doctrines right, and that the most diverse doctrines are proved from the Bible. (1SM 19)

    • Stephen Ferguson

      Again I agree. There is no doubt huge irony in using a female spiritual leader to try and say other women cannot be spiritual leaders.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Thomas/1542271911 William Thomas

        Please define “spiritual leader”?

        Seriously. Because as someone who is adamantly opposed to women’s ordination because it is not Biblical, I think many supporters of women’s ordination mistakenly assume that opponents such as myself do not want women to have any significant position in GOD’s Remnant Church.

        Let me be clear, women do have a vital role to play in GOD’s Remnant Church. There were ordained women prophetess and even judges (cf. Anna and Deborah) but NEVER a woman priest. Likewise, women today have a vital role to play in the finishing of GOD’s work in these end times today but ordained elder and ordained local elder are not among them. Indeed, it was a women and Bible Worker who the LORD used to bring me into this message some 30-odd years ago; interestingly enough, she is probably more opposed to women’s ordination as pastors and elders more than I am.

        As bad as the issue of women’s ordination is — and again, let me be clear and think that the ordination of women as pastors and even local elders is apostasy — it may cover an even bigger issue. Where did we as a people get the idea that in order to work for the LORD, someone must be ordained (or even licensed or “commissioned”)?

        • Stephen Ferguson

          I think that is the key. As Protestants, our clergy are not priests because we believe in the priesthood of all believers!

          My understanding is the NT has two major models of leadership. Spiritual leadership (namely apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors), as made clear in Eph 4. Matthais selection by lots demonstrates God chooses these leaders, not men, and where we get the word ‘clergy’ (Gk for ‘chosen by lots’).

          Spiritual leaders are those who Paul notes are entitled to be paid by tithe. They also don’t strictly require ordination – they are chosen by God – ordination is just an afterthought of pubic recognition.

          Ellen White is our spiritual leader par excellence. She was clearly an apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist and pastor. She was paid from the tithe. She didn’t need Church ordination per se because God chose her!

          By contrast, appointed leadership (elders and deacons) is quite different. Appointed leaders need ordination to make them. The proof texts of ‘one wife’ only apply to appointed leaders, not spiritual leaders.

          • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

            Remove all the “proof texts” from the Bible, and what are you left with?? How much of Scripture is inspired? 2 Tim 3:16

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            Yes, proof texting is hated by liberals because it reminds them of the BIBLE! Something they want to manipulate for themselves or ignore.

          • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

            Which is of the higer position in the sense of HOLDING the church together and been lead by God?? Is it the prophets “CHOSEN of God” or the “human VOTED leadership” of men?

            Please chart the HISTORY of all churches and ask yourself from the days of Saul & David, to Christ, to the Apostles, to Luther, to Miller, to EG White to now. Has the “VOTED church leadership” ever truly accepted the “CHOSEN” men and WOMEN of God or did they occupy their times trying to “Kill” them literally or “spiritually”?

            Isnt the fact that everyone seems to be confused as to what the word ‘ordination’ means and WHO is the only one who can ORDAIN a person to an Spiritual office of leadership, whether pastor or prophet? Is it man or God and which is higher?

            Are we so confused that a PROPHET is the VOICE of God DIRECTLY and the “ordained” pastors are suppose to reflect that voice via the prophets??? NO WONDER this church us in trouble.

            Is there a DIRECT command by God to HIS VOICE in Mankind and in this case to a WOMAN, that tells us that NO WOMAN should be ‘called by the laying of hands (ordained) to be a pastor? or did we suppose that this or that is what EG White is saying with no solid, THUS SAITH THE LORD.

            When Moses appointed Joshua to the leadership, was it Moses who actually appointed Joshua or was it God. READ the story everyone. It was GOD who told Joshua first of his appointment and then TOLD Moses to confirm (ordain) it among the people.

            This is how it works with GOD FEARING leaders, NOT “VOTED” leaders.

            Most people are confused as to the fact that God is a Theocracy and does NOT work on a democratic system. God says and man does. Where do we see the family of heaven “VOTING” on issues?

            Show me in the Bible any instance when people voted for a leader of spiritual things except for Matias and we NEVER heard anything about him after that in the Bible, and yet we cry for democracy in chosing men or women to lead instead of consulting God…opinions from everyone, and none asking about group prayers as to “WHAT SHALL WE DO LORD”

            What happened when Israel (the people) chose Saul by vote to lead them when GOD CHOSE David by the PRPOHET?

            What happened when people CHOSE the Jewish Leadership to lead them instead of the CHOSEN 12 and 120 (lets not forget about the 120 who went to evangelize the know world at that time men and WOMEN)?

            What happened to the SDA church when men chose to have the GC and a president lead them, instead of the voice of the prophet and those called DIRECTLY by God to lead the people. This is what happened…pay close attention.

            “15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
            16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
            17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
            18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
            19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

        • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

          The real reason those who are determined to push forward WO is more based on what they see as discrimination. If that be the case, they are should call Jesus a male chauvinist. Since Jesus ordained 12 men, and 0 women.

          • SKBrown53

            Good point.

          • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

            Thanks for the affirmation. I was booted off Spectrum and Adventist Today, because they couldn’t handle the truth. This forum is a breath of fresh air.

          • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

            Sounds like they need to get a bit more ‘liberal’ and ‘tolerant’!!!

          • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

            Isn’t that the truth. When the liberals are presented with the naked truth, they can’t handle it. And they immediately try to silence your voice.

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            So true. Liberals love to spew their “You aren’t tolerant enough” to the conservatives, and show the most intolerance themselves!

          • Jim Acebedo

            Yes. You become an “enemy” when you tell the truth. (Galatians 4:16).

          • Rick Shorter

            At least the truth lets us identify our enemies.

          • Jim Acebedo

            It’s sad, but the Lord said that our enemies shall be they of our own household (of faith) Matthew 10:36.

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            This is so true, at least right now. The worst enemies of the SDA Church are those on the SDA Church PAYROLL!

          • Shorter

            Here is a way to fix that problem. In fact it is already under way.

            http://www.tithesandofferingsdirect.org

          • Will Forte

            Ron, you are a well-known cult leader and legalist. I would suggest you let Christians that are trying to find a good way forward take this one.

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            Same for me!!!

          • Beccakrish

            I agree so glad I found this site everyone on other site way…liberal..I was reading them..and I guess I’m very naive about what is going on in our church..I was a little shocked

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            David Read and I have both been booted off Spectrum too. You’re correct about them not wanting to hear the truth.

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            I agree. Using their criteria, we should boot JESUS out!

        • Rachelle

          What a refreshing perspective

        • Beccakrish

          I totally agree I used your same argument with my brother…brought up Debra and Anna et…but no women ever served as priestess..et..only in pagan cultures..I m female ..I’m o opposed to wo…is has nothing to do with women’s rights et….it actually destroys the specialness and differences between men and women and totally not our place. It destroys the image of God as he created us…to me it is no different than letting a gay person be an elder.

        • hodicom

          How do you reconcile your feelings that it is apostasy to ordain a woman with the Bible admonition that “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28). “And where is it proclaimed that being an ordained elder is the same as being a priest since we believe in the “priesthood of the laity.”

          • A Servant

            Great question! Let’s look at the passage again. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus”. (Gal 3:28). This passage clearly says that ethnic, economic, or male/female differences did not prevent *unity* in the church. However, the Bible clearly teaches that Christian slaves were still to be subject to their masters, continuing in their role as slaves and honoring their masters as much as they would honor Jesus (Ephesians 6:5-8). Their masters were not removed from their jobs, but were urged to exercise their role in the light of their responsibility to God (Ephesians 6:9).

            Scripture also clearly teaches that Greeks ought to give special honor and respect to the Jewish “tree” of faith into which they had been grafted, and take a role of humility and secondariness (Romans 11:11-32). The Jews are not required to reciprocate this role to the Gentiles, but hold a unique role and spiritual significance based on their heritage.

            On the basis of these two verses, we can see that the unity in Galatians 3:28 between Jews and Gentiles, and slaves and masters, did not obliterate all distinction between them. Paul teaches that the same is true for the relationship between male and female (1 Timothy 2, 1 Timothy 3, 1 Corinthians 14, etc.).Therefore, men and women are united in the family of God, but they still have their own significance and role as a man or as a woman.

          • hodicom

            Thank you for explaining. I believe you are sincere, but it still makes no sense to me. God created us and equipped us to do the work we need to do for Him, whether we’re male or female. A family must follow definite roles for mom, dad, and kids. A church is responsible for all members, and the more we try to press the church into the mold of a child-raising family, the further we move from God’s ideal for us as those who share love, light, and truth with others.

            But thanks for your note. I’ve found that people who feel as you do, that men must rule supreme, do not change their minds, especially if they’re men. Somehow this has theological meaning to them.

            Joyce Griffith

          • MAllen

            Hello Joyce,

            the problem is that men, and unfortunately some brainwashed women on this forum, do not know or care to know what hte Lord has ordained in comparioson to what He has allowed. This is why they quickly jump to Divorce wives and husbands for almost anything, citing God allowing it and not seeing what Jesus saying that “it was NOT SO from the beginning, but becasue of the HARDNESS of your hearts” is was allowed.

            They also ignore all the other Bible evidence of the role of women and as EG White said to ” build up false theories calling them fundimental doctrines of our faith” TM 69

            They have build up postions and then defend them with the Bible out of it’s context, when the Bible teaches no such thing. They say you can be a Prophet of God as a woman but you cannot be a pastor as a women, thus to say the role of a pastor been ordained by anothererring man of flesh holds a higher postion than an “Ordained” Messagener of God called “directly” by the Holy Spirit (Ruach- feminine in the Hebrew to boot).

            You are right, how do you reason with minds who think like this!!

            There are a few of us men on this forum, (a few) who are comfortable in our skins and do not need to hold the female down to uplift ourseves, using the Bible to justify our position. Men used it (the Bible) for slavery back then also and it ‘sounded’ resonable good then, but was it?
            I was a professional football player for 7 years before I returned back to the Lord and the SDA church whom I love, and I am now a organic farmer. I dont need to hold my wife down to lift my manhood up.
            bro MAllen

          • John

            You’re taking that Galations 3 verse out of context. Put it back where it belongs.

      • Nxumalo

        Mr Ferguson, if in fact the female leader is sent of God to pass that message, would you be comfortable to direct your statement on ‘irony’ to Him?
        It is I believe our humble belief that God worked through EGW to give guidance (not over and above the Bible) however within the allowances of God’s teaching in the Bible.

      • Becky

        http://youtu.be/0irueCn3hHc
        Maybe this will help you to understand. May God be with you.

        • Carlos

          we are so bless to have leaders that can stand firm and its members to support them… God be the glory that is our foundation…instead of pulling outward we should come together and pray for the guidance of our true God

  • Ron du Preez

    While I am 100% against the votes of the CUC and PUC (in that they are contrary to the official GC policies, and thus cause disunity in our Church), I could not help but notice a recent post which claims that in “GOD’S Remnant Church” women are not to hold the post of “ordained local elder.” According to the “Questions & Answewrs” document (on this very website), decisions by the General Conference Annual Council are fully authentic (just as much as the GC session; and htis statement is in our 2010 Church Manual, p. 30). Hence, the 1984 vote permitting women to be local elders is an official policy of the Remnant Church. Since the most recent call by the GC officers is for unity, and not for independent actions, etc., by anyone, I am fast coming to the settled conclusion that THIS website is (perhaps unintentionally) fomenting a spirit of rebellion, and disunity! How do I conclude such? Since both in articles and posts I see so many who are strongly against women as local elders, inspite of the fact that such is an official church policy, properly voted as such. Just wondering: What does church UNITY really mean? I would thus challenge ALL to become serious about “unity” with the policies of God’s Remnant Church, including policies that we may personally not feel too comfortable with. All of us need to prayerfully reflect on this. And, to keep our eyes on Jesus!

    • Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.

      If Annual Council voted women Elders in 1984, why was it not ratified by the GC in session? This is an important and controversial matter. Why would it not be brought to the GC session? Might those who get to travel to Annual Council yearly be a lot more westernized than those who get to come every 5 years to GC Session. What would happen if the GC Session did not affirm the Annual Council 1984 vote, especially in light of CUC & PUC?
      GC, PUT WOMEN ELDERS ON THE 2015 AGENDA!!!
      Let God’s highest authority on earth speak to this issue.

      • Ron du Preez

        @Elizabeth Iskander; Just a quick reminder: The “Questions & Answers” document of the GC leaders pointed out that the globally representative Annual Council is authorized by the GC in Session to take official votes, and that such votes are officially part of Church policy, which we as loyal Adventist are asked to abide by, especially if we believe in unity. (Please read the “Response” document after the PUC vote, as well, which calls for “unity.”) By the way, since that official vote in 1984, that women can be ordained as local elders, we have had the 1985 GC, the 1990 GC, the 1995 GC, the 2000 GC, the 2005 GC, and the 2010 GC (6 in all). And, in none of these sessions was the 1984 vote ever challenged or overturned. In short, the 1984 vote is fully accepted, and if we consider ourselves loyal Adventists, why do we find it so hard to show our unity on this matter? Incidentally, since I truly believe in genuine unity, I am 100% against the recent votes of the CUC & PUC, which are contrary to the 1990 GC vote, and cause disunity. So, my challenge to my “conservative” brothers and sisters is this: If we claim to be committed to this church, and if we seek to be loyal, and work in unity with our appointed leaders, then let’s do so truly, and not just when specific votes suit our personal, subjective views. Let’s focus on Jesus, and get to work for His glory, in unity!

        • Ron du Preez

          One more vital point: If we accept Ellen White’s statement, that the GC in Session is the “voice of God,” then we need to be willing to accept what that voice says, right? And, the GC in Session voted that the Annual Council can make decisions for the Church. So, I personally, have chosen to listen to that “voice of God,” which voted that the Annual Council’s votes have authority, including its 1984 vote authorizing women to be local church elders.

          • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

            I hear what you are saying, but are you saying that every action that the GC enacts is true and biblical? It seems to me, that if the 1984 authorization was not passed, we might not be where we are now. In that first step of ordaining women elders, it seemed open the door to women’s ordination as a Pastor.

          • Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.

            Boards usually approve minutes of the last meeting. What was told 1985 GC Session delegates about the 1984 Annual Counsel decision? I’ve been told to contact Ben Baker www. .archives@gc.adventist.org. I hope others will ask and report. Lots of requests get better info. Were study papers prepared for this Annual Counsel 1984 vote. How close was the vote? What was the gender % of this vote. Was there a significant gender gap? Was this before they included more foreign delegates? What % were from the 1st world?

          • MAllen

            Ron,
            Has the GC always been the voice of God?? How do you know this 2012 GC is the voice of God when histrically it posted by the EG White the PROPHET that there were times when they were not? So, who decides if the GC todate, are the voice of God…the GC themselves?
            “The voice from Battle Creek, which has been regarded as authority in counseling how the work should be done, is no longer the voice of God.–17MR 185 (1896). {LDE 50.2}

            “It has been some years since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God.–17MR 216 (1898). {LDE 50.3}

            “That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be–that is past.–GCB April 3, 1901, p. 25. {LDE 50.4}

        • http://www.facebook.com/brian.fort.9212 Brian Fort

          @Ron du Perez; From Page 19 of the manual:

          “The 2000 General Conference in session authorized the reclassification of some existing Church Manual material into the Notes section as guidance and examples rather than mandatory material, and approved the process for making changes. Changes in the Church Manual, except for the notes and ed-itorial changes, can be made only by action of a General Conference in ses-sion, where delegates of the world church have voice and vote.”

          What you are referring to concerns notes and editorial changes, not policy.

        • MAllen

          Brother Ron,
          you stated “If we claim to be committed to this church, and if we seek to be loyal, and work in unity with our appointed leaders, then let’s do so truly, and not just when specific votes suit our personal, subjective views. Let’s focus on Jesus, and get to work for His glory, in unity!”
          Here is my response to this and please respond to each question and finally to the quote from EG White…
          1. Is the Loyalty to God or the ‘church’ (leadership)?
          2. Was Jesus loyal to the church (people) or the leadership?
          3. Who should we the people listen to, the leadership or the
          prophets?
          4. Was Jesus and Aspostles our of order when they disobeyed the church (leadership)?
          How do you answer to these quotes from EG White and many more, if we try to excuse it away as one situation or been used out of context? By the way, the context is BEYOND been clear.
          “The angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.” We see here that the men in authority are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of Bible doctrine. There are many today who feel indignant and aggrieved that any voice should be raised presenting ideas that differ from their own in regard to points of religious belief. Have they not long advocated their ideas as truth? So the priests and rabbis reasoned in apostolic days: What mean these men who are unlearned, some of them mere fishermen, who are presenting ideas contrary to the doctrines which the learned priests and rulers are teaching the people? They have no right to meddle with the fundamental principles of our faith. {TM 69.1}
          But we see that the God of heaven sometimes commissions men to teach that which is regarded as contrary to the established doctrines. Because those who were once the depositaries of truth became unfaithful to their sacred trust, the Lord chose others who would receive the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, and would advocate truths that were not in accordance with the ideas of the religious leaders. And then these leaders, in the blindness of their minds, give full sway to what is supposed to be righteous indignation against the ones who have set aside cherished fables. They act like men who have lost their reason. They do not consider the possibility that they themselves have not rightly understood the word. They will not open their eyes to discern the fact that they have misinterpreted and misapplied the Scriptures, and have built up false theories, calling them fundamental doctrines of the faith. {TM 69.2}
          But the Holy Spirit will, from time to time, reveal the truth through its own chosen agencies; and no man, not even a priest or ruler, has a right to say, You shall not give publicity to your opinions, because I do not believe them. That wonderful “I” may attempt to put down the Holy Spirit’s teaching. Men may for a time attempt to smother it and kill it; but that will not make error truth, or truth error. The inventive minds of men have advanced speculative opinions in various lines, and when the Holy Spirit lets light shine into human minds, it does not respect every point of man’s application of the word. God impressed His servants to speak the truth irrespective of what men had taken for granted as truth. {TM 70.1}

          Present Dangers
          Even Seventh-day Adventists are in danger of closing their eyes to truth as it is in Jesus, because it contradicts something which they have taken for granted as truth but which the Holy Spirit teaches is not truth. Let all be very modest, and seek most earnestly to put self out of the question, and to exalt Jesus. In most of the religious controversies the foundation of the trouble is that self is striving for the supremacy. About what? About matters which are not vital points at all, and which are regarded as such only because men have given importance to them. (See Matthew 12:31-37; Mark 14:56; Luke 5:21; Matthew 9:3.) {TM 70.2}
          But let us follow the history of the men whom the Jewish priests and rulers thought so dangerous, because they were bringing in new and strange teaching on almost every theological subject. The command given by the Holy Spirit, “Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life,” was obeyed by the apostles; “they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought. But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told, saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within. Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. Then came one and told them, saying Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people. Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.” If the priests and rulers had dared act out their own feelings toward the apostles, there would have been a different record; for the angel of God was a watcher on that occasion, to magnify His name if any violence had been offered to His servants. {TM 71.1}

          • Ron du Preez

            Greetings “MAllen”

            I would be happy to respond to each of your questions; but, it would take me considerably more time than I have to type up the needed full answers.
            If you are interested, please give me a call on my cell number, listed below.
            Ron

            9925 Fountain Lane, Fowlerville, MI 48836, USA
            Cell phone (517) 599-3798

          • Felix Mann

            Of Course, MI – most backward church region in Christendom

          • MAllen

            Greetings Brother Ron,
            the Lord be with you.
            The answers I seek are for all that are on this postings. These things I believe should be addressed in the public as the comments I replied to from your postings were statements you made in the public. I will call in the near future, but for this posting, I respectfully request an publicl answer to your public posting. We can just deal will one question at a time so that all will benifit from the discussions from both sides even thou it may be long. I am sure all interested will abide.
            Respectfully,
            MAlllen

          • MAllen

            Brother Ron,

            are you refusing to answer me unless I do this in private?

            Your first response was cut and immediate, yet it has been 10 days now with no response from you. Am I now to be shunned for asking some very serious questions or are we as Christians who are able to follow the the very “Messenger of God” we both believe to be the Voice of the Most High God.

            “Truth is eternal, and conflict with error will only make manifest its strength. We should never refuse to examine the Scriptures with those who, we have reason to believe, desire to know what is truth as much as we do. Suppose a brother held a view that differed from yours, and he should come to you, proposing that you sit down with him and make an investigation of that point in the Scriptures; should you rise up, filled with prejudice, and condemn his ideas, while refusing to give him a candid hearing? {CW 44.1}

            The only right way would be to sit down as Christians and investigate the position presented, in the light of God’s word, which will reveal truth and unmask error. To ridicule his ideas would not weaken his position in the least if it were false, or strengthen your position if it were true. If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time that we knew it. There must be no spirit of pharisaism cherished among us. When Christ came to His own, His own received Him not; and it is a matter of solemn interest to us that we should not pursue a similar course in refusing light from heaven. {CW 44.2}

            We must study the truth for ourselves. No living man should be relied upon to think for us. No matter who it is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a perfect criterion for us. We are to counsel together, and to be subject to one another; but at the same time we are to exercise the ability God has given us to learn what is truth. Each one of us must look to God for divine enlightenment. We must individually develop a character that will stand the test in the day of God. We must not become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.–Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. {CW 45.1}

          • Ron du Preez

            Greetings MAllen

            In my previous email, I gave you my cell number, so that you could call me, so we can talk. Again, as a brother in Christ, I appeal to you, PLEASE call me at 517-599-3798, so that we can talk.
            I do not have the luxury of time to type up replies to the many emails, and facebook questions/issues raised by various people on different topics. You could simply extend to me a similar courtesy of sending me your cellphone number; then I would be happy to give you a call. Hope to hear from you.
            God bless;
            Ron

          • MAllen

            Brother Ron,

            I meant no disrespect to you but PLEASE understand the point and principle I am trying to hold. I understand clearly you are a very busy man as an elder in this church and a man of great responsibilities, but understand this principle which I must hold to.

            You made some very strong statements to the “public” and I questioned those statements ‘publicaly”. I do not want a “private” answer. It is “unfair” to those you made the statements to and shows no “transparency” to all in wait. Can you not see that it would be “unfair’ to answer to me in “private” when you made the comment in “public” and as I asked my questions in public for ALL?
            You have taken the time to post many things on these forum, so you do have some time..maybe not much but the lives are worth saving who wait. You give your clear position and now I ask you to do the same with the questions asked and the quotes from the SOP given. Can you not see by insisting that you answer my “public” request in private, you show disrespect to the ones you made the comments to, denying them the opportunity to an answer or to challenge your remarks if they were proven wrong?
            Can you not see that others would look at this as you trying to move in secracy to avoid answering to some very strong statments by the SOP in opposition to your statements, especialy when you have so clearly avocated the fact that you would take the teaching of EG White first (With the Bible at the forfront of course” over any other statements by anyone?
            I would love for you to have my phone number to call me BUT, it would be “disrepectful” to the “true” Christians on this forum who is truly trying to find the truth on the matters in order for them to order their lives according to the will of God. I have no choice but to do that which I must to help them and myself to depend on the Lord for the answers not on flesh, irrespective of the position they hold, while showing respect the office they hold..(example David to Saul)
            I myself is a busy man as you and with great responsibilities as I am a business owner and employer of many people and thier families form three different countries in this world, I have six beautiful children of which three of them are teenangers, enough to keep one VERY busy and a tiller of the soil. My brother I am very busy also, BUT, should I not take the time to stop and give the people an answer as they seek it, or should I be the ‘only’ one to benefit from the answer you wish to give to me in ‘private’?
            I do not want to be disrespectful to you elder, but I must hold my ground for the sake of those who are ‘honest’ in heart and seek to hear your answer on the matter and the questions forwarded to you. Do not disregard them as unworthy to hear what you must say on the matters.
            I repectfully request your answer to the questions “in public” before we can discuss anything in private. It is unfair to those on this forum waiting for your answer. They deserve an answer, not just me.
            I will pray for you respectfully
            Your brother in Christ.
            Bro MAllen

          • MAllen

            Elder du Preez,
            I was hoping to see you commit to the principle of “fairness and transparency, BUT it seems that will not happen. I was hoping to get an intellectual answer from. Disappointed

          • Ron du Preez

            Greetings (a final time?) to MAllen

            I would like to respectfully request that you discontinue writing to me. As I had previously noted, I do not have the time to reply in writing. Hence, I will need to sadly terminate the concerted effort I have made to participate in a dialog with you (via telephone).
            I still do hope that you would show that you are truly interested in a kind Christ-centered discussion. Until then, I will be “signing off.”
            Ron

            Cell phone (517) 599-3798

          • MAllen

            Brother,
            No problem if this is your desire. I also believe that I do have a desire to dialogue with a Christ-centered discussion with you, but we both have a different take in regards to “open” “transparent” discussions so that “all” may benefit, not just me. I am not a selfish person my brother, and I have “nothing” to hide from. I desire no private dialogues in a public discussion. i believe it is an “unfair” request to those on this forum. I can afford to be corrected publically if “He” so desires. Proverbs 9:9

            More saddened am I for a man of your respected position. May the mercy of The Lord guide you now and in the future. I wish only for your life to be committed to His care and keeping.

            I am truly interested in your soul, but we “all” need to humble ourselves before The Lord for Him to do His work in us. Sadly good bye my brother. God”s keepings.

            Brother MAllen

      • Rachelle

        Let only God himself speak to this issue, through His Word (his letter to us). God says I am the same yesterday, today, and always.

        • Elijah

          No wonder we’re faced with the issue of WO. Ordaining women as elders is as wrong as ordaining them as pastors. One compromise brings another.

          • Rachelle

            Well put! Let us all go back to the Bible and stop fighting something that is against God.

          • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

            I for one is still waitng for people like yourselves who Keep saying “lets go bac to the Bible” to give the STRONG Bible references XACTLY saying that women are not to be ordained….NOT from other “men” sermons, but from YOUR own research…That I would greatly appriciate. thanks

          • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

            typo: ‘bac’-back, ‘XACTLY’ – EXACTLY

    • http://www.facebook.com/brian.fort.9212 Brian Fort

      Is their an article post that states women can’t be elders, or just a comment post? In any case, I agree with you on the spirit of disunity. The church manual explains the official policy of the Seventh-day Adventist church. The annual councils decision for female elders doesn’t contradict the manual as far as I can recall. Elders don’t really have any authority in the sense that Paul was necessarily referring to in 1 Timothy 2:13

      • Dr Truth

        We know who is behind these WO issues. Plainly put “Jesuits”. Our church leaders have been rushing to educate themselves, Professors, PHDs, Msc etc for the sake of bringing disunity. They beeing sponsored by “Jesuits”. Elder Wilson, may God bless you and may you thru Our Saviour The Great I AM lead HIS people.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Thomas/1542271911 William Thomas

      Greetings Brother du Preez (by the way, we met several years ago although you probably don’t remember me). Since I am the one — or at least one of several — who wrote that ‘women are not to hold the post of ‘ordained local elder’,” please allow me to elaborate.

      You are, of course, correct in that it was voted that women could be local elders. I acknowledge and respect that, even as I think it is wrong. The analogy I would use is that Elijah acknowledged and respected Ahab as king: Elijah did not start or partake of a development to overthrow Ahab and even lead Ahab’s chariot through the storm, an act normally associated as that of a servant to the king. Yet Elijah, even as he respected the king’s authority and office, did not hesitate to tell the king where he was wrong. Such, I sincerely hope and pray, is my position.

      However, I must also add that my understanding is that the ordination of women as local elders was made specifically as a compromise with those who wanted the ordination of women as pastors. Moreover, I will even admit that there is a bit of theological and logical inconsistency when we, as a church, say that the ordination of women as local elders is okay but the ordination of women as pastors is not. Although the compromise was made, it should not have been. But since the compromise was made, I respect it: the ordination of women as local elders is supported by the worldwide church.

      I must also add, however, that in order to follow the Bible — as well as to be logically and theologically consistent — I do believe that the issue of the ordination of women as local elders must be revisited. But in the meantime, I am not recommending that anyone quit the church, I am not saying that anyone should withhold tithes and offerings, I am not supporting any “rebellion” against our church. But I am saying that, ultimately, in order to be consistent as well as Bible-based, we as a church body are going to need to address the issue of women’s ordination as local elders again (and preferably at a full General Conference Session).

      • Elijah

        I do agree with you brother, God bless you!!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

      Valid point Ron du Preez, however the GCs annual vote on women elders lacks biblical grounds, as much as the whole WO, and was the start of the WO problems. One unbiblical concession has led to a potential avalanche.

    • Larry Green

      Hello Ron,

      Trust all is well with you and the family. Thank you for your post.

      I have a question and need just a bit of clarification on the church’s stand on women elders being OK, but not women pastors. In fact, until I read a response on Christ or Culture from you, I did not even remember (or never knew) that the church had an official stand that indeed allowed women elders in the first place. And since 1984! (It was done at a GC annual council I understand; I wonder if it would have ever passed at a GC world church session? But you indicated that the annual council was just as binding, according to the quote you used.

      First of all, many members question the ordaining of women as elders, let alone as pastors. But most SDA’s, including myself, will always want to abide by the world church positions. (Unless their is obvious end time apostasy from clear scripture).

      What confuses me, and most of the entire church membership, is how can the church have an official stand, taken in 1984 at an annual GC meeting allowing women to be ordained elders, and then not expect that it would lead to essentially splitting the church some 28 years later?? The only surprise is, how come it took THIS long??

      In other words, how can it be OK ” Biblically” to ordain women as elders (and many are not sure the decision to ordain women as elders was Biblical, but did it to be politically correct!), but then have the position that it is NOT OK to ordain a woman as a Pastor??? It seems to many that it has to be OK for BOTH, or NEITHER; but you can’t have it OK for women elders, but NOT OK for women Pastors. Makes no sense to those who stand on EITHER side of the issue; hence the split and the votes that have occurred now with CUC and PUC!!

      So I guess now, at least, the rebellion is forcing the church to come up with, I hope what is a correct and final Biblical stand on the issue of the complete package; the proper understanding of ordination in the first place, should women be elders, and should they be pastors.

      Please respond at your earliest convenience regarding the church position on:

      Why women elders OK, but not pastors?

      Did not the church make a serious error in deciding to ordain women as elders?

      Should not the church UNDO their decision on ordaining women elders??

      Or should they now decide to also ordain women as Pastors??

      With great interest in knowing and following the truth, always wanting to be on His side.

      Your friend,

      Larry Green

  • MartinGore

    I’m interested in knowing your opinion on this:

    One of the main phrases that is used that Paul wrote is that an elder/pastor needs to be a “husband of one wife”. However, these same people who use this phrase see no problem with having an elder/pastor who is single. When asked about that, all I’ve heard is, “husband of one wife” means fidelity. That if you have a spouse, then you must be faithful to your spouse. But if “one wife” really means faithful, then why can’t “husband” mean spouse?

    It seems that we either have elders that are “husband of one wife” which means they must be men and married, or then we just make sure that our elders (both men and women) are faithful if they happen to be married.

    I’m awaiting your thoughts.

    • Ron du Preez

      @MartinGore; I’m assuming you were “talking” to me! If so, here’s a brief reply: The SDA Church has never (to my knowledge) taken a position that the “elder” must be a married man (even though a “strict” hyper-literalistic reading would apparently require that, I believe). Instead, we have rightly seen this as “marital fidelity.” Which, I believe is why the decision to permit women to be ordained as local church elders (back in 1984 at a GC Annual Council, which had FULL authority to do so), was not against the meaning of the biblical passages relating to elders. In fact, conveying this very sentiment, is the 2011 Common English Bible.

      • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

        How is it decided what is ‘hyper-literalistic’? Could it be that is just the plain reading of the Bible, and that the 2011 Common English Bible, like many other modern ‘translations’ are actually saying something that is not in the original. We must be careful to follow ‘every’ word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
        And does the GC annual council have the right to take a vote on what is truth? Could we one day imagine a ‘majority vote’ on homosexual leaders which the Bible is clearly against?
        Is there any justification for not taking these verses just as it reads, rather than explaning it away?

    • Rachelle

      If you go back to the Greek you will see that it is clearly talking about husband as man and wife is woman and can not be translated as spouse. I agree also an Elder must be married, to one wife.

  • janet

    Janet – We are the Remnent Church…So we go to the Bible …Not the desires of men or women to settle this. And what does it teach us? I believe that there is not an instance anywhere where women are ordained as pastor or priest. We need to get BACK to a “THEOCRACY” and have our leaders and everyone else in the Church to do the same or we will be wiped out.

    • angelfire

      Hi Janet
      youre right –we should get back to the BIBLE alone
      Where does the Bible say that Seventh Day Adventists are the REMNANT CHURCH?
      It does not simply because a woman founded it after hearing William Millar Mid 1800′s
      Millar recanted–Why didnt Ellen?
      cheers
      Rob

      • Will Fults

        Hi angelfire,
        William Miller didn’t live long enough to see the official formation of the Seventh-day Adventist church as he passed away in 1849. If you are looking for where the Bible says the Seventh-day Adventist church is the remnant look in Revelation 12:17 and I encourage you to study this – http://www.amazingfacts.org/free-stuff/bible-studies/study-guides/ctl/viewmedia/mid/453/iid/2-23/lng/en/7/the-bride-of-christ/sc/r.aspx Blessings.

        • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

          Will, I am confused. What are you doingin a SDA discussion if you do not believe the SDA church is the true church of God…NO doubt it is enfeabled by POOR leadership, members who make these men, with their Phd’s, their arm, men who hold the GC as if the men of the Conference are Godlike stature and are all God sent, as if their blood is not red.
          People who DRESS like the world, TALK like the world, ACT like the world and EAT like the world. Yes all this and somethings worse that we cannot even see in those high places of “ordained” offices.
          BUT, it is the church of God like the Jewish church with all its defilement and corruption in the days of Christ, the remant of God.
          Here is your confusion. How can you see these people acting as they are and yet say that they are the remnant?
          Simple. there is the Corporate remant and the people remnant.
          Example, Israel was the corporate but the 120 was the remant. That been said, the TRUE remnant is found in the body of the SDA and the TRUTH for the world is found IN the SDA body GRADUATED as the Apostles who themselves where israelites in the Corpoate body but was called by GOD DIRECTLY, NOT by the “Ordained” men of the “preisthood” to be the TRUE “ORDAINED” men of God’s true church. By the way, did Jesus lay hands on any of them and stated they were “ORDAINED” to preach, YET was not Paul, Timothy, Silas, and ALL GREAT PASTORS for the people including “Aquila and Priscilla” of which one was a WOMAN? Who ordained them?
          My brother a time will come when God will “CUT” out of this Mountain (see what a mountain represents in the Bible mentioned 130 times. Isa 2:2-3), HIS precious STONE (Daniel 2) that will become the TRUE MOUNTAIN and fill the earth before his coming.
          THAT STONE, from the MOUNTAIN (SDA) will be the ones who have the TESTIMONIES of JESUS and the SPIRIT of PROPHECY (Voice of God via HIS Prophets).
          THEY will be the TRUE REMNANT, but they MUST be part of the SDA church that GOD has bestoyed with the truth, THOU the people today are IGNORANT in following it, or dont’ even want to know it, IT is still God REMNANT Church.
          Remember, IT HAS NEVER BEEN OR WILL EVER BE THE MAJORITY WHO WILL DO RIGHT, so that is NO varification that the MAJORITY of people in the SDA church has “VOTED” in the right way towards ordination of women…if many was in the DAYS OF CHRIST, MOST would have stoned Stephen and kill the Apostles and WORSE, CRUCIFIED Christ becasue they were “against” what the “Counsel” known today as the “GC” was teaching on a subject, just by the very manner they are acting today against those who have a voice against the GC, NOT against God.
          All who read, think about it with a honest heart and reply by facts not emotions.
          May the Family of Heaven have mecy on us all.
          * forgive me of any spelling typos
          My brother, if you cannot see

          • Shane H

            The greatest sin in pride…

          • MAllen

            A few questions:
            1. Define Pride?
            2. Clarify your point?
            3. Which point are you associating to “pride”.
            I ask these 3 questions becasue i am confused as to your application and the point to the application.
            Please explain..thank you.
            MA

        • Shane H

          The Bible does not say directly or indirectly that Adventists are Remnant. This is the kettle calling itself black. No amount of cave theology will change that.

      • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

        CORRECTION…Message was a reply to “Angelfire”, NOT “Will”. Sorry Will

    • ted_guine

      So, getting back to the Bible. Does it bother you that in no place is man ordained to the gospel ministry either? Does it bother you that the gospels are inconsistent? Does it bother you that our church policy is not mentioned in the Bible. Does it bother you that it doesn’t comment on most of our church practice? Oh, thinking hurts. Ok.

      • MAllen

        Hello Ted, since there are two in oppsosition here, please let us know who you are directing comments to….giving the last sentence, it would give the impression that no one on this forum has no mind to think, in order to avoid all that pain you are talking about.

        • ted_guine

          I guess I wasn’t thinking ;) I was reacting to a user named Janet and other who seem to think “back to the Bible” is some kind of clear and direct approach. It may be noted that all parties in this discussion are “in the Bible”. If you treat it infallibly or literal you are in serious trouble. You might want to look at the revelation of the world around you as well. We believe in present truth – do we not?

          • MAllen

            Ted,
            I do agree with the fact that there are many things in the Bible that cannot be taken as read, but the only way will know for sure is by His Spirit and the Bible says that is by HIS prophets. This part is clear in the bible and yet we dont take that as is, but we argue things like WO which gives no clear you cannot do, and thus argue that everyone else does not follow the ‘clear bible’.
            A sister said on one of these forum, “we should go back to the Bible and take it’s word as it is written and not ordain women” (paraphrase)”, So I told her that if this is the case, she needs to keep quiet on this forum and all other women, invoicing their open opinions, for did not the Bible speak about “women to keep sillent in public”?
            I am still waiing for her answer or maybe she decided to take the Bible as is and not speak:). I then said THANK GOD that is not as we read. Dont know, but the point I think was taken. We just need to stay in the middle road to allow the Spirit to work in helping us understand the Bible until we all come into the unity of faith. If we think our own understanding cannot be challenged, then we will have a problem learning anything new or relearning the TRUE old.
            You must study, hold what you have learned as the truth until something else trumps what you have and clear it up, but dont think it cannot be wrong. God will not hold it against you for cherishing error believing it to be truth, but he condems those who neglect the opportunity to find the truth because of carelessness and indiference.
            Parts of the Bible is direct to the point and some needs a prophet to let us understand, especially when it comes to prophecy….for the Bible says it is of “NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, but HOLY MEN OF GOD as THEY WERE MOVED by the SPIRIT.
            Help us Lord.

  • Geni

    I am thankful for a Godly leader in Elder Wilson.

  • Yolanda

    I’m praying for our President Elder Wilson, God helps him to stand for truth. In this moments we need to go back to our foundations. It is incredible the damage that Liberal theologies are doing to our unique message. We need to open our eyes and see that this is a Jesuit infiltration work to destroy the last Warning message to the world. They worked in the same way with Lutherans and Anglicans and after to ordain women, came homosexuals and the whole structure is destroyed from inside. This is a moment of prayer, and to be united in Christ. Definitely this is part of the shacking process for God’s church because He is coming very soon. God help us to be faithful!!!

  • Pearl

    Thank you Lord, that we have Godly leaders that do their best to maintain the order and the light in our church. Let us pray for them because Satan is attacking our church and especially our leaders. Let us not forget that our word must be in the TRUTH. If we can’t say, a “Thus saith the Lord” then the Word is not in us, nor is there truth.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kingsmessengers Kings Messengers

    Praise be to God for always being in control and reigning upon the delegates to reject being used as a rubber stamp to perpetuate agenda of stray leaders bent on dividing God’s church for their selfish ends. To the delegates who voted against the attempted change of bylaws thank you for standing up to be counted for not succumbing to be used by man to undermine God. To those who voted for -God has given you an opportunity to rethink your destiny before your probation closes.
    To the voting to approve recommendation of women as pastors, it holds no water. Sympathy vote to appease reckless women who have called themselves made themselves ‘pastors’ contrary to God’s word, we say it is better to appease God [the Creator] rather than man or woman [a creature]. Let us leave this issue under the able hands of the General Conference who is entrusted with steering the Church, unless and until they prove tired and are democratically replaced in the next session in 2014.
    To the instigators of this rebellion in Columbia and Pacific, we urge you for your own souls sake, to abandon this mission and repent, and if not we expect the GC Special Session in October to unequivocally release you from service so that you do not hang on on leadership to derail the train from focusing on its destination.

    • wandrako

      Unfortunately, the Columbia Union is in full rebellion and voted for the ordination against Elder Wilson 4-1 in favor led by the union president and the conference presidents!! The people at the meeting didn’t care about unity or the church in general. Not the bible or EGW.

      • Rachelle

        Why is the Columbia Union being allowed to rebel? Should this be dealt with?

        • Ron Stone M.D.

          Rachelle, Many leaders in our SDA Church have no backbone when it comes to dealing with these types of matters. Out here in California,we have the worst set of so-called leaders I could ever imagine. Maybe the CUC is stuck with the same situation.

          • Beccakrish

            Yes we here in sw Colorado also…I am from the south east but moved here 2 years agoe. Very small church here…but total leadership problems. I can’t with a clear conscience attend anymore but keep sabbath at home and watch satellite. I have never in my life not gone to church. It’s the music..and the pastor placed head elders..who also are totally in charge of the music…and basically run the church. They use drums..et…it is basically Pentecostal. Others don’t like it either..but go with the flow…no backbone. I had to stand up in the middle of a sermon to disagree with th pastor who was preaching a total untruth…my dad was visiting fom out of town and I think he was glad I stood up.
            No one else would say a word..not a peep. Some only attend ss..others meeting in homes. I found a church who will let us use their church on sabbath…but no one wants to break off and start our own..Adventist church. It’s a mess. My husband not sda…but was so interested in it but totally disappointed bc of this church. I wrote the rocky mt conference several times to no avail…they do nothing…no backbone. Evid most the churches here into the new way of doing things. I know the church leadership here def for wo…I’m def not. There is no other Adventist..church for miles that we can attend. Very sad…never thought I would see this in my generation..

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            It sounds like the spineless, gutless leadership is not unique to California. I didn’t think it was. I have friends all over, and some tell me the same thing.
            I don’t believe in staying home, however. Although I understand your frustration. I found a truly Bible-believing SDA Church (Sacramento Central) but those in more rural, isolated areas may have a big problem.

        • wandrako

          They have been allowed to rebel ever since the first churches in CA ordained women many years ago. Sligo Church in Takoma Park ordained a woman or women at the same time the others did and the church is in the back yard of the GC. They have now done it in the union as a whole and on a vote. The first time they just did it. This is not my church any more with all the things apostate ministers preach and get away with. Now this.

          • http://www.facebook.com/kingsmessengers Kings Messengers

            wandrako. We share and empathize with your predicament. Surely they must not be allowed to wreck the Church from within and we look forward to stern action by the GC in Oct. Meantime we want to urge you that you are in the right Church maybe domestically headed by the wrong leaders. Don’t succumb to their motive by moving out. Stay put while God sorts out the issue. Only when God steps in there may be gnawing of teeth. Remember Luke 4:16-17 Christ regularly went to Church on Sabbaths being led by selfish and ill motivated Pharisees who would later betray Him, but He still went because the problem was not with the Church but the hypocritical leaders. Wait to see the glory when God call the tune.

          • http://www.facebook.com/basil.burnstein Holly Mitchell

            Kings Messengers- Very well put, I agree with you whole heartedly, It’s just so overwhelming and sad… but we must stay with the Church

        • Beccakrish

          I totally agree..we have pussyfooted around long enough…time to act. The music in the church…the elders though men…who drink..go to football games on sabbath et et. Not trying to judge but when people are in sacred leadership roles..they must be accountable…I would def difellowship CUC from the name seventh-day Adventist.

    • http://www.facebook.com/cindy.guthrie.9 Cindy Guthrie

      I have noticed even until this date the ones stepping out of unity and very much encouraging others to follow, still do not show understanding of how God carries His church forward. That would show me that they are not qualified to hold office that they do not know how to fulfill. I have only came back to the church for a few years from leaving in my teens, and have not applied for such positions and know better. How did they get into office in the first place?

  • Nxumalo

    It has been a breath of fresh air reading most the comments on this
    site. First time caller. May I speak to WO both as elder and or
    Pastor. My take is both are not supported by the Bible and therefore
    not up for discussion.

    The GC sessions that voted for this position (women elder ordination)
    did so in error and the church has in history made errors and allowed
    for correction.

    We are committed to the church, however ONLY as we go by ‘thus saith the
    Lord of Hosts’. and I fully agree with the brethren calling for the
    removal of leadership in conferences where there is clear indication
    apostasy is being fostered and encouraged. God bless.

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.banda.9212 Michael Banda

    i see the hand of God putting Pastor Wilson in this position at the right time as this, we are praying for you pastor, this is the right way to go as the bible say ” do not follow the majority in doing what is wrong”

    • Elijah

      I’m praying too for Pastor Wilson. God help him to stay firm on the solid foundation, the Bible.

      • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.frida Stephen De Bruyn

        I am too. May God be with the 21 percent who voted against this idea, as we are foretold the this church will go through. Going against popular paradigms will be tough, but its the only way to please God.

    • All4Him3

      Did it dawn on you the God’s will may have been done and that prayer was a paramount part of the PUC session? Pretty ironic for the leader of a church claiming the power of prayer and then rejecting the outcome that was clothed in pray. Basically Mr. Wilson is the only one rejecting God in this work. Sickening.

      • A Servant

        Proverbs 28:9

        He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

        • All4Him3

          Ah but everyone prayed so you see we are all in the same boat. We either take God’s answer or your BS.

  • Sandra

    I praise the Lord that the PUC is still with us! May the Lord give special grace to our leaders in dealing with such a dangerous problem. May we not look to the feminist movement who is destroying our nation and church but to God who is the founder of our church.

    • Jim Acebedo

      Hi Sandra, We praise God that the Union and its membership are still with us – but it’s NOT because of their leaders who desired a change “to allow the union to be out of sync with General Conference regulations.” I’m wondering what those few PUC leaders are up to….

  • Elios Pierre

    Praise the Lord for that! But I pray that these last day prophetic movements will always fail, and elder Wilson will stand firm, no matter what. I also pray that the last day innovators will change and will be converted for the good of the flocks that God has entrusted them, and also for their personal salvation. Finally, the church members should not keep silence to allow everything from their unconverted leadership happen among them, for the wrath of God would be upon all of them. My brothers and sisters, let us pray for the ultimate purification of our church, and for wisdom for our ministers.

  • Thando

    MARK With Sis White quotes hits the nail on the head, most of you who have posted here probably didn’t ask for god’s guidance in interacting with his people. You probably haven’t prayed and fasted over this issue and surveyed the facts and opinions. You probably see anyone who agrees with you as standing for the truth. Who is the Spirit of Truth? Each one of us have to be honest with ourselves and admit that there are more serious things that need addressing in our lives. As some of us write against or for WO, we have people we are struggling to forgive and sins we struggling with. We probably use these forums as a way of diverting from the need within and so we focus on things that will not save us. God be with us all as a people living on the day of atonement. Let every soul afflict themselves for the soul that doesn’t the same shall be cut off. Let us agonize with the Lord for our own souls and our neighbour’s.

    • Scott Eakins

      You speak the truth regarding our own personal struggles with sin. However, all godly people have these struggles and yet still fight against ungodly positions others are trying to set up within God’s church. The two are not mutually exclusive.

      • thando

        You’re right they’re not, however somethings don’t seem to be pointing to dear sweet Jesus and His atoning sacrifice they seem like a distraction. I could be wrong but I am persuaded that these endeavours tend to hide the cross than magnify it. Yes let’s fight against ungodly positions but let’s first be sure we are fighting with God not against God. Many have fought but their bouts have been called into question while thy were convinced they were fighting for good. We’re not that different, anyone of us could be making that mistake. Some are fighting entrenched in tradition and some propelled by liberalism but i pray we were entrenched in Jesus and propelled by the Holy Spirit. we couldn’t take counsel within ourselves but prayerfully allow The Spirit of Truth to lead in Spiritual things for Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
        God bless

  • Alphaeus, C.E.

    Thank you Jehovah God, for you are still in control.

  • Van Ottey

    May God continue to be with elder Wilson in these troubling times.

  • Lowell

    Two points that I would like to make:

    #1 is that Ellen White was God’s messenger. When she brought council or messages from God she had no authority to enforce God’s bidding. The people that she brought messages to had to decide for themselves whether to abide by that which was presented to them.

    #2 If a decision making process is established and that process includes representatives from throughout an organization, and a group or individual within that process decides to go against voted actions with which they do not agree, then they should be excluded from participation in that decision making process.

  • Mike

    This issue is similar to the Children of Israel asking for a king, not forbidden,
    but not God’s original design, Samuel was distressed, but God assured Samuel it was Israel’s rejection of Him!

    • Jake

      if we have votes this we should also have one on Sunday keeping
      If we go contrary to the Bible in one thing then we are guilty of all. Those that want to follow the Bible will need to do so on there own or as a group

  • Francis Yaw Owusu

    Praise the Living God for this failed attempt. God should be allowed to lead His church. Let us all be serious in praying to God for the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit. Praise the Lord once again.

  • angelfire

    Hi Folks
    I left the SDAs years ago because a woman was given “prophetess ” status
    If Men will not step up to the plate ; and a willing woman will , will you rather have a “weak ” man in the position?
    Where do you get the idea that S D A’s are the ‘REMNANT CHURCH?
    This is an ELLEN WHITE fallacy!
    See what problems you have when a woman gets “power”
    I own a 1920′s version of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY in which Ellen contradicts SCRIPTURE at least 14 times in the chapter INVESTIGATIVE JUDGEMENT
    All you need is CHRIST—forget Ellen and join mainstream Christianity as its leader .Get rid of yoiur Millerite “cult” status –forget Ellen–ALL YOU NEED IS CHRIST

    • http://www.facebook.com/kingsmessengers Kings Messengers

      Angelfire, since you say YOU ALREADY LEFT THE CHURCH YEARS AGO, WHY ARE YOU STILL INTERESTED IN COMMENTING ON THE CHURCH ISSUES? Think about it -maybe your conscience has been frequently disturbed as the Holy Spirit works in you to come back to His Church. You may write anything but deep inside you know you are NOT AT PEACE! Forget your selfish bias and pride and do the right thing.

    • The J Man

      Rev 12:17
      So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
      NASU

      Rev 14:12
      Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
      NASU

    • http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

      Pray tell, what church do you belong to now? Or, are you a one man church? Please post a statement of your faith, and let us examine it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

      AngelFire,
      I meant no disrepct to you when I say this, but with sincereity of heart. Are you willing to test yourself to see “which fire” burns within you?
      If you are interested, I am willing to take you on a Bible ONLY study mapping out Bible history from creation to where you are today and THEN make your decisionas to if the SDA is false. Nothing else but the BIBLE and Historical FACTS, NOT opinions.
      I will lay all I have at the alter. Are you willing to do the same with BROTHERLY LOVE??
      Please let me know….my email is michael@gbeorganic,com

    • MAllen

      Angelfire, I replied to you a month ago and it seems you have no desire to have your mind challenged with direct Bible history and facts…Again my invitation is still open to you and anyone who would like to see this SDA church in bible prophecy….DIRECT facts from the BIBLE and history or you can call it coincidence…but look up the word first before you see to this study. If you dont want to know, then I understand, but ask yourself this question, is this me here below??
      “Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
      Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
      Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

      Nor war or debates, just a thought. Take care.

  • Margaret

    Janet said it right. Our own ideas and desires are trumphed by what the Word of The Lord says. I pray Elder Wilson will stand firm and may The Lord bless this Godly man.

    • Mari

      Amen!!!! I agree with Geni!!!!! lets us all pray for the Holy Spirit and not men to lead us….

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1141870185 Hope F. Sigua

    Praise the LORD! No matter what happens GOD WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL!!!

  • Donna

    The Bible, and the Bible only. Thank God for the Godly courage of Elder Wilson!

  • The J Man

    Remember the Rebellion of Korah!!! Study carefully the message to Laodicea!!! God will not countenance Rebellion!!!!

  • angelfire

    Hi Folks
    Anyone desiring to obtain a copy of Ellen Whites book THE GREAT CONTROVERSY printed in the mid 1920′s please contact me at swardn225@rogers.com
    be warned , there are some neatly printed M,ARGIN NOTES in the chapter on investigative judgement , showing where Ellen White contradicts scripture over 14 times with scripture refrerences from KJV
    Hard cover , leather bound with gold leaf lettering all pages clean with NO mildew
    also included is a tract 2300DAYS

  • Frankie

    The bible says God’s last day church is the remnant church. For it to be a “remnant” it must look like the original or it is not a “remnant” and is something entirely different. If the original church had women pastors than the remnant should but if the original church did not have women pastors then the remnant shouldn’t either. Ellen White was only one of the several original members of the first SDA church. She was not the “founder”.

  • icls

    Hi Folks,

    My intent is not to cause offense but please notice what has recently happened (July 2012) in the Episcopalian

    Church and see if you notice any similarities with the statements with respect to gender from the Union

    Conferences below:

    “Officials
    in the U.S.-based Episcopal Church have given homosexual and
    transgender activists two victories on the fifth day of their triennial
    denominational convention.” -July 2012

    http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16279#.UDZtqqAyCSq

    http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/2012/07/10/god-keeps-calling

    “If there were no other evidence of the real character of spiritualism, it should be enough for the Christian

    that the spirits make no difference between righteousness and sin.
    … Satan says to the world: ‘No matter

    how wicked you are; no matter
    whether you believe or disbelieve God and the Bible. Live as you please;
    heaven

    is your home.’ The spiritualist teachers
    virtually declare: ‘Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight

    of
    the Lord, and He delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?’
    Malachi 2:17.
    Saith the

    word of God: ‘Woe unto them that call evil good, and good
    evil; that put darkness for light, and light for

    darkness.’ Isaiah 5:20.
    —The Great Controversy, pp. 556-557.

    “It is true that spiritualism is
    now changing its form and, veiling some of its more objectionable
    features,

    is assuming a Christian guise. … While it formerly denounced
    Christ and the Bible, it now professes to
    accept both.

    But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing
    to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths

    are made of no
    effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a

    weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God’s justice,His denunciations

    of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight.” —The Great Controversy, pp. 557-558.

  • Ronda

    It seems to me that the text in 1 Samuel 15:23 applies to the WO vote
    taken Sunday. “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubborness
    is as iniquity and idolatry.”

    • Jim Acebedo

      I agree!

  • isaac

    i thank God for an answered prayer

  • Kay

    Elder Wilson conducted himself very professionally and was very polite and dignified at the PUC meeting, unlike the manner of some of the others present. I thank God for our present GC leadership.

  • Tudor

    Brothers and Sisters stay unated in the truth. Only doing so God will lead us. May Ted Wilson be suported in our praers.

  • frank

    i also pray elder Wilson and encourage him not to give in to the pressure of these men and women out of harmony with the rest of the church.

  • Luis Olivera

    Thank God we have a great president Ted Wilson, humble, dedicated, steadfast and loyal to God and to our church, respecting the structure of our beloved church.
    I think it was due to respect the voice of our president, this unilateral decision, out of the world organization, order and cracks will not help the ordination of women or other concern or desire on the part of unions or divisions in the world, we are praying to God for unity and direction of the Holy Spirit in our church, a loving embrace,
    Luis Olivera

  • Luis Olivera

    Pr Ted Wilson we pray for you, do not forget, do not go back, follow the footsteps of Christ, there is nothing to fear, the world is supportive, with appreciation,
    Luis Olivera

  • Luis Olivera

    Hello brothers:

    We should not worry, we just have to pray and hope that our church will triumph, it is good that the shaking has arrived, it is good that we see with our own eyes, but God will have the last word, when we see the opinion, the decision in this Next fall of Unions presidents and presidents of the world divisions, in relation to this matter, you will see the hand of the Holy Spirit to guide his church, the spirit is necessary, order and loyalty to God and his church are indispensable in the way forward for the church, and God, as it always has, lead his people in the next Congress.

    There will be confusion of faces and there will be joy in God, the church will go on, we must continue to pray for world leaders and his Holy Word first, never the true church of God at all times be guided or established on the prevailing culture, or about philosophies, nor can accommodate our decisions or personal desires, and beyond the human daily activities in the world, there is a desire of God to a people obedient, loyal, loving and firm to its eternal principles of unity in the Spirit. Never in the work of the deity, everyone did their will, the spirit of the remnant is indivisible and marcaharemos together to the end, wherever there is a devoted shepherd, he, his wife and children, anywhere in the world, the spirit will continue guiding you to make the character to holiness of God’s people, and taking it step by step to victory in Christ.

    The church laodisense, the shaking, the decline of the latter rain on the faithful remnant, the persecution, the decree Sunday, the closing of probation, pests and the glorious coming of Christ is at the door, but each time his Instead, only we in humility we should submit to his will, stick to God all the time.

    These events will be rapid, it is true that the shaking will come out thousands of our church, and I think the time is coming, this issue goes beyond the ordination of women, the acceptance of gays and lesbians, family disintegration, American culture, European or Australian to the world, no, is that Satan is working from within to destabilize us, to break the bonds of an indivisible unity in the Holy Spirit and in the 28 biblical beliefs on which our church is seated.

    There is nothing to fear unless they forget how God guided us in the past, and as he led our church, but it is time we take a stand with writing this, so if we tell you it’s because they have no light, no apparently all that gold will shine, inside the devil will have pure poison for millions astray, take them to the open apostasy, will turn away from the truth that one day they met, they will be taken captive by Satan, they take out the eyes and you will see to offspring hopelessly lost, as in the past when Jeroboam for fear that the people will turn to God, for personal convenience, the people turn away from the worship of the true God and take them to the customs of the surrounding towns and broke the unity of people of God and was given 10 pieces that was called Israel and later they disappeared from the place where God had led them with a strong hand, were brought to Samaria to cities of the Medes, as slaves and leaders were killed by the sword but God has always had a faithful remnant, we continue forward and up, not back, or down, continue in prayer looking to Christ guiding his ship, with appreciation,

    Pr. Luis Linan Olivera

  • Luis Olivera

    “YOU SHOULD COVER A SMALL HOLES OF A DAM WATER BEFORE THEY BREACK AND BRING DEATH AND SADNESS”

    Administrative intolerance, the power absuo always exist, both in the male or female, because we are human beings, history shows that queens have been abusive, authoritarian and even sometimes cruel and without compassion, have been men of God who administratively have been great servants of God and we can take them all in the same bag, as we have seen good and bad managers at a time.

    The reactions in different sectors always obey different motivations, but we can not send us away to mourn and say my “mea culpa has spent all this” there may have been abuses and that somehow they must be stopped, but this is something that is going to come in like manner, “because there is no evil that lasts 100 years or body that resists” because when a church claims something, the discipline you all and close the mouth, sometimes the administration is correct and others do not, if there is much abuse, authoritarianism and perepretacion of the charges in some quarters, and there will always cronyism, while Christ’s second coming, but I think this is a different situation.

    This is because a government within another, no problem in changing policies and regulations, but in order and with proper support and when that should be done, otherwise there is anarchy, who has judged whether the shift managers have done a good job? who evaluated them, as they themselves have been called to form a gear in the North American leadership is apparently indestructible, as has been shaped through time? in other words who puts bell the cat? as they say in slang? For years, Hispanics are discriminated against in this country, when a Spanish gives some opinion in the English-speaking environment, it’s looks like from another planet, as if there were more head than Americans, who assesses that American churches they are falling apart? assessment that people who have not won a soul comes and brand strategies to follow? Who evaluates when sisters and brothers go to the clubs to make their societies young at night in the English-speaking churches? Who for dances in cultural churches that claim to be different? Who evaluates teachers of universities for years abuse their students and become kings and autocrats and smarties, without allowing the student to express their views without being labeled? Who has taught philosophy and stone egg? Our way of seeing things, indeed, are likely to differ, and as a pastor I’ve seen things intolerable in the administration, I have suffered, and I think this is not a matter of the ordination of women, because women are pastors who feel sorry for their management, few know where are the pastors? Now, they are perhaps in the best churches? They have raised work? where no members? How many souls have been won? They have proved their discipleship? It is easy to see from outside and that not for internet or TV, you can see the efforts of American pastors. They are human and can be wrong if, as well as all of us, but I think that’s not the case now.

    The great conflict in the church is the order of the general government, regardless of particular problems or aspirations or some that are the same for years.

    I still believe that despite our own inconsistencies church will go ahead and support Ted Wilson and prayed for him, because I do not like to be in his shoes now, would be easy to appear condescending and loving to all and make the administration and almost worship God in his own country, and often we think American or U.S. guidelines are parameters to follow, I think here nacera the shaking, our Hispanic race or latonoamericana simpre has been copycat, everything that is done in this country permeates and dictates parameters to follow in the world, fashion out of here, because here is no money and that the pastor here is not the pastor there, and so many are drooling to come to this country, known as the progress and freedom, here you can do what you want, if you stand head here, because we have to do, this is fashion, without thinking that many children of pastors are lost in debauchery and drugs in this country .

    I pray that there is a real revival in our church, and thank God that divine providence is beyond us, God directs his work, I do so, despite the undesirable things that are seen, Christ is at the helm, there to wait in prayer and God will bring His people in the midst of refreshing existing confusuion, a big hug,

    Pr. Luis LInan Olivera

  • Donna

    Thank you President Ted Wilson, a man of no compromise when it relates to the Word of God. May God continue to bless you with the discernment to see and do what is right/true. Continue to be faithful. God bless.

  • Jan Kip

    I fully agree with the words of br. Gerard Damsteegt. I hope that his message will be accepted by all members of our church. Jan Kip, from Holland, a SDA member for over 70 years.

  • Arleen

    Thank you Elder Wilson for explaining the issue and that the World Chruch is in
    compliance with the truth set down by the Holy Spirit and we MUST follow our
    Lord and God or we will loose our way to the kingdom.

  • George

    So many comments & no deep research, so sad; got to go back to basics, Scripture. quote from Gospel Workers pg. 96-97? It says “It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.”
    Was EGW not ordained by the GC in 1881 or not, hello?
    The original intent was for women to be man’s equal, to meet his other half. Due to sin, new function roles were to be taken, women to be submissive to men, (1Cor. 11:3; 1Pet.3:1; Col. 3:18; Eph. 5:23). But there are verses in Scripture that define the equality (Gen.2:21-23, 27; 1 Cor. 11:10, 11; Gal. 3:8; Eph. 5:21). Shows a dichotomy in Scripture, why? To struggle with, same reason he created; whites, blacks, yellow, browns, & so forth; to see & show our human nature, ‘contaminated’. All said, God’s original intent was for us to be equal, strive for it but in the meantime, follow the God’s roles, functions till resurrection morning, If a person or union want to strive for perfection, ‘be ye holy’ or treat women equal (God’ original intent), more power to them, let it be–or continue a patriarchal society due to culture, education, interpret., let it be? quote from Gospel Workers pg. 96-97? It says “It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.”
    Was EGW not ordained by the GC in 1881 or not, hello?
    The original intent was for women to be man’s equal, to meet his other half. Due to sin, new function roles were to be taken, women to be submissive to men, (1Cor. 11:3; 1Pet.3:1; Col. 3:18; Eph. 5:23). But there are verses in Scripture that define the equality (Gen.2:21-23, 27; 1 Cor. 11:10, 11; Gal. 3:8; Eph. 5:21). Shows a dichotomy in Scripture, why? To struggle with, same reason he created; whites, blacks, yellow, browns, & so forth; to see & show our human nature, ‘contaminated’. All said, God’s original intent was for us to be equal, strive for it but in the meantime, follow the God’s roles, functions till resurrection morning, If a person or union want to strive for perfection, ‘be ye holy’ or treat women equal (God’ original intent), more power to them, let it be–or continue a patriarchal society due to culture, education, interpret., let it be? quote from Gospel Workers pg. 96-97? It says “It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.”
    Was EGW not ordained by the GC in 1881 or not, hello?
    The original intent was for women to be man’s equal, to meet his other half. Due to sin, new function roles were to be taken, women to be submissive to men, (1Cor. 11:3; 1Pet.3:1; Col. 3:18; Eph. 5:23). But there are verses in Scripture that define the equality (Gen.2:21-23, 27; 1 Cor. 11:10, 11; Gal. 3:8; Eph. 5:21). Shows a dichotomy in Scripture, why? To struggle with, same reason he created; whites, blacks, yellow, browns, & so forth; to see & show our human nature, ‘contaminated’. All said, God’s original intent was for us to be equal, strive for it but in the meantime, follow the God’s roles, functions till resurrection morning, If a person or union want to strive for perfection, ‘be ye holy’ or treat women equal (God’ original intent), more power to them, let it be–or continue a patriarchal society due to culture, education, interpret., let it be? quote from Gospel Workers pg. 96-97? It says “It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.”
    Was EGW not ordained by the GC in 1881 or not, hello?
    The original intent was for women to be man’s equal, to meet his other half. Due to sin, new function roles were to be taken, women to be submissive to men, (1Cor. 11:3; 1Pet.3:1; Col. 3:18; Eph. 5:23). But there are verses in Scripture that define the equality (Gen.2:21-23, 27; 1 Cor. 11:10, 11; Gal. 3:8; Eph. 5:21). Shows a dichotomy in Scripture, why? To struggle with, same reason he created; whites, blacks, yellow, browns, & so forth; to see & show our human nature, ‘contaminated’. All said, God’s original intent was for us to be equal, strive for it but in the meantime, follow the God’s roles, functions till resurrection morning, If a person or union want to strive for perfection, ‘be ye holy’ or treat women equal (God’ original intent), more power to them, let it be–or continue a patriarchal society due to culture, education, interpret., let it be?

    • http://www.facebook.com/brian.fort.9212 Brian Fort

      I couldn’t find what you quoted in Gospel Workers. There are two versions released in different years, and I checked both. Perhaps I missed it. Which paragraph and which version of Gospel Workers are you referring to?

      • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

        Hello Brian, here are all the books with that EG White quote:
        Gospel Workers (1915) Ch 3, pge 97
        3 Testimonies, page 332
        6 Testimonies, page 322
        Colporteur Ministry (1953) pge 34
        Daughters of God pge 252
        Pastoral Ministry (1995), pge 47
        RH ( January 15,1901) par 5
        AUCR (July 1, 1902)
        VSS (1988) Chapter 40
        MC (1902) Chapter 3
        CEV (1950) Chapter 3

    • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

      George SO RIGHT…Lts of private OPINION and NO deep research.
      Let us see what the dictionary define the WORD “OPINION”

      “A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:”
      “A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing”

      “a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce
      complete certainty.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.”

      “[noun] a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty;”

      Bottom line is this. As “Christians”, when it comes to Spiritual things, WE should NOT be giving OUR opinions based on what the majority believes, but on the WORD of God. NOT of our OWN private interpretation of the Bible, but BY the HOLY MEN (or MANKIND) since this includes ALL Messengers of God, EG White for one (2 Pe 1:21) . If we do decide to give OUR opinion, we become LIARS, bearing FALSE WITNESS on the matter. Search the Scriptures about “bearing false witness” and who is “the author of lies”.

      Ex 20:16; De 5:20; De 19:16; De 19:18; Pr 6:19; Pr 14:5; Pr 19:5;
      Pr 19:9; Pr 21:28; Pr 25:18; Mt 15:19;

      How sad indeed.

      “For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.” Isa 9:16

      “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” Ho 4:6

  • Francisco Herculano

    I would like to see a GC’s response also to CUC action. Please, if there is one, publish it here. Thank you.

  • Sail

    Someone is using Barak and Balaam method to confuse the Church. Please whoever this person is iam telling to open your eyes, the hand of God is with this Church. STOP IT before something strange happens to you. Do not fight God. Elder Wilson we are praying for you here in Africa. Please Pastor Advise our pastors to execute their duties without fear of losing their salary.

  • Paul Day

    These are sad days in our Church’s history,
    but it is prophetic… “many a bright light will go out” “first they will reject
    the testimonies, then the Word of God, then the downward path to perdition” “the
    laity will finish the work”
    etc, etc.
    This is the enemy’s last desperate effort to try and destabilise and destroy
    the remnant church of Rev 12. But instead this is simply causing the shaking
    that will result in the purifying of God’s Church. And it’s this church
    militant that will finish the work in a blaze of glory and become the
    church triumphant.
    So I say, let Pacific Union and Columbia Union and all the
    NAD conferences go ahead and do what they
    want to do, believe what they want to believe, ordain who they want to
    ordain and form their own conferences and churches, and let us just focus on
    getting our houses in order and taking this wonderful message God has given to
    the SDA Church to a
    dying world. People in the world and in spiritual Babylon are just waiting for
    us to give the trumpet a certain sound so that they can come out and join the
    ranks of the God’s faithful children. And the enemy knows this hence the
    reason he has planted these seeds of rebellion and distraction. But thank God
    for the spiritual eye-salve that He has given to us so that we
    may be able to perceive the work of the enemy and not be
    distracted.
    The Lord has given each of us an awesome work to do and the
    spiritual gift to accomplish it; let us therefore look away from this deliberate
    ploy of Satan and just get on with the business of saving souls so that the Lord
    can pour out the Latter Rain Holy Spirit and then come back to take us home!

  • Nyoni Kaliza

    God is a God of order, we need to respect His word and follow what is the bible, the disire of God is that HIS church must be united,we should be united and say no to heresy championing women ordination

  • Lys

    I am grateful to God for the Spirit filled Leadership of His Church today in the person of Pastor Ted Wilson and all his associates who believe in the clear Word of God. I will continue to lift you up in prayer and the God of peace will Guide you to lead His Church.

    As a church body we stand on the fact that we are people of the WORD OF GOD. If we can not back our actions/decisions on the Word of God then we have to stand clear from it.

    All true disciples of our LORD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST , please PRAY for the for the HOLY SPIRIT for yourself, our Leaders and the church. This is God’s Church. He is coming back for a pure church. Where do you stand? Are you building your FAITH/TRUST on the Solid word of GOD or on men’s ideologies.

    GOD is shaking His church but will hold on to His own. Trust in GOD.

  • kitkat

    Before you even ask people to make a vote why doesn’t the church educate the people about Ordination where it comes from historically, and wether Jesus was ordained. It does not matter if Ellen G White was ordained or not. We are Christians not Whitists. No offense. I do believe in the Spirit of Prophecy But I believe Christians are supposed to follow Christs example and the Biblical way of doing things. if the Church is doing things following Ellen G White then lets make the distinction but it is not hones to follow Sister White and tradition and then argue from a Biblical perspective. SDA MInisters know that ordination is not even Biblical. for men or women. Ordination is a practice of Pagan Politics. So lets be honest. If Politics is creating a division in the Church, lets do away with it. Why don’t you just take ordination away from all the pastors that are already ordained that is if this church is truly going to follow the Biblical principles and practices. The Seventh Day Adventist Message is such of pure message Please, President and SDA ministers lets not hinder God’s work being entangled in politics. Again Please educate yourselves and the people on the topic before you ask for an ignorant vote. The question is not “wether we should ordain women” but rather “should we do away with ordination completely” Ordination is what is causing the problem even among male ministers. The problem is not Women wanting to be ministers. the problem is that the church is limiting women who want to dedicate their lives full time to the ministry. Are we going to let politics destroy the church or are we going to build it through the power of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands which was all that was given to each disciple and believer in Jesus’s time. What ordination did Jesus receive? what Ordination did Paul and Peter receive? what ordination did anyone in the Bible receive? If Ordination does not have a Biblical background then we are correct in saying that women’s ordination is not Biblical. But, are we being honest in excluding men in this affirmation?

  • Me

    My vote is against politics in the church. Ordination is not biblical so we are correct in saying that women’s ordination is not Biblical but let’s be honest and not exclude men from this affirmation. The vote against ordination should include men also. Those who do some research will find that ordination has pagan political background. Are we going to build this church in Biblical principles and the power of the Holy Spirit or through politics and tradition?
    With all respect please, educate the Church before you ask for an ignorant vote.
    there should be no vote for ordination that is if we are going to do things the biblical way.
    If we are going to rely on pagan tradition then lets be honest and make the distinction.
    If Ordination is causing division in the church and hindering the Spread of the Gospel then it is worth our time to research and study before we fall in the same cycle of giving personal opinions based on tradition and ignorance. It is the church’s responsibility to educate the people.
    It is the General Conference’s responsibility to study God’s word and research and educate the people and declare sin. Not just to ask the people for their opinion. Please do not take the truth as an attack against the church but as constructive criticism.

    if you are a member and do not know how to do research call the general conference and ask for help. maybe they can put out a quarterly on the topic.

    Satan hates women because it is through a woman that the savior came. He will do anything he can to destroy a woman in her home and in the church. Let the Church be the first to stop the attack on women not only physically, emotionaly, phychologically, but also spiritually. Let us stop not only racial but also gender discrimination in the church. Throughout history there has been a tremendous and horrible abuse against women. Women have been seen as objects less human than men and less spiritual then men. Remember God chose a woman to bring the savior into the world. Women are as much spiritual and capable as men. Women need a savior just as men do. They have a responsibility to minister just as men do. If God is calling a woman to be a minister full time, whomever tries to hinder that is taking the place of Satan. The word of God tells men to be gentle to their women so that their prayers will not be impeded. Be careful that it is not a depraved opinion of women the one guiding your position on women and ordination.

    It is so sad that the very same creatures that God has appointed to be heads and gently care for and minister to women are the ones abusing that priviledge and instead are using their authority to suppress and destroy the spirit of such gentle spiritual beings.
    why is it that a woman who wants to be a minister has to prove herself by having a 200 member congregation before a conference will hire her?
    Does that sound like Biblical principles or Discrimination

    Conference leadership should not comply with such abuse from the people. In Biblical times if the people were astray the prophets would declare it. they did not ask nicely for their opinion or their vote. If something is wrong it needs to be declared.
    this is why the church has ended up with Black and White conferences. Politics, Politics, Politics.

    Do we want to be the Remnant or the Correctly Political Church?

    Let us be the Remnant in the name of Jesus Christ and through the Power of the Holy Spirit

  • Jody

    Question: Who pays ordained women pastors? Are they paid by funds of their church, PUC, or the GC? Who has been paying these 25+ women “pastors” (before the PUC vote)? If they are paid with funds other than extra funds from their own church, is it the responsibility of the SDA organization to pay those who are employed outside the guidelines? I cannot imagine any employer or my school district paying for people who do not fit into the published job descriptions in their policy manual. As teachers, we could not rally and say, “Hey, we want to hire a classroom aide. We voted yes. We hired a person. Now you pay their salary and benefits.” We, as teachers, would have to work through the administration and school board to educate as to our needs and get approval. Isn’t this what Ted Wilson asked? Join us in our study and participate in the 2015 GC discussion and decision. Lay the facts (bible study) on the table with us. Didn’t PUC also refuse to be part of the GC process? Some will say, “Well, the process was done before, and the answer was not to our liking.” Then, as teachers, we would need to try again . . . with better information. Then, if it does not happen in 2015 after joining together in the pre-study and discussion, either “press together” as Ellen White suggests or make the break in 2015. PUC, in my opinion, rejected Ted Wilson’s request, ignored the world church (or gave everyone a certain finger) to pursue it’s own agenda. Ted Wilson was speaking to spoiled, rotten kids not wanting to share their toys? This, maybe is our baby boomer ways? The leaders I saw in the PUC looked like baby boomers to me. The young folks in the GYC at Loma Linda were rather shocked looking at their “older mentors” throwing a tantrum, when the request by Ted Wilson seemed so reasonable. So, therefore, who pays the ordained women pastors? Also, “without regard to gender” on the California work permit application means male, female, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and questioning (LGBTQ). The clubs being started in every public high school are LGBTQ Clubs (called Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Questioning Straight Alliance). So, the bylaw that failed by a small margin that said “without regard to gender,” I think, was more far reaching than most imagined — especially since it was proposed within the state of California.

    I think that some SDA churches (and mainly in So Cal) would love to be thrown out of the GC so that they can form congregational-type churches and say, “It’s not our fault.” I had a pastor tell me about 10 years ago, our church (I won’t say which one) will be separating from the GC.” Maybe like Clint Eastwood, these churches are daring the GC to “make my day”? Might the best way to discipline would be to stop the flow of money, if any is now flowing?

  • Jose Chavez

    To the general conference of the seventh-day adventist church and to the pacific union conference.

    I am a young adult who got baptized into the seventh-day adventist church faith about two years ago. Since a child I gave my self to Satan and worshiped him since I was 9 years old. I would hear a voice who would guide me on what to say and when to say it. We have the holy spirit and in that world we have the dark spirit. I just wanted to give you an idea on where I come from.

    It was a few young adults and teenagers who were watching this meeting. Some were adventist and some were not. It was amazing to see leaders! adult leaders fight like cats and dogs. How Ted Wilson was interrupted because of time concern but then yet other people took longer and they didn’t say anything. Which only shows a bad spirit it shows pride in their hearts.

    Another thing is that there was a hispanic pastor accusing the general conference of rebellion saying that PUC is not in rebellion. All because he said so? because he herd? and we have to take his word?

    We all come from the street and this all looked like a dejavu.

    Seventh-day adventist leaders are so quick to attack one another and right away accuse the other group/person of rebellion. When this only leaves a big loop hole for people like me, people like us, people that are new, people that are considering to join the SDA faith. It leaves a big loop hole for Satan to attack and say “this is the church you want to join? look they fight like cats and dogs they don’t believe”. It leaves him open to plant seeds of doubt, and opening to mold and make the SDA church look like he wants.

    It is amazing to me to see kids who are not not baptized into the SDA faith. Who have never herd of Ellen White say “Some of these grown people are talking with anger, pride” “No one is really listening”. “Looks like PUC is talking down the General Conference is a massacre”

    No wonder the youth groups in the SDA are dying. What do the leaders expect? I believe Ted Wilson handle things well. But on the other hand it is leaders that attack leaders without facts or biblical proof. Due to this I lost a few friends believing because of the leadership.

    “It is Satan’s plan to weaken the faith of God’s people in the Testimonies.” “Satan knows how to make his attacks. He works upon minds to excite jealousy and dissatisfaction toward those at the head of the work. The gifts are next questioned; then, of course, they have but little weight, and instruction given through vision is disregarded.” “Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.” [VOL. 4, P. 211; VOL. 1, P. 236] “By giving place to doubts and unbelief in regard to the work of God, and by cherishing feelings of distrust and cruel jealousies, they are preparing themselves for complete deception. They rise up with bitter feelings against the ones who dare to speak of their errors and reprove their sins.” [VOL. 3, P. 328.] {5T Page 672 Ellen White}

    To see Ellen White being miss quoted. No wonder Ellen White says

    In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God. … Have Seventh-day Adventists forgotten the warning given in the sixth chapter of Ephesians? We are engaged in a warfare against the hosts of darkness. Unless we follow our Leader closely, Satan will obtain the victory over us. RH, August 11, 1903. [Ellen G. White]

    It pains me and it embarrasses me to say does are the leaders of my church. Even Ellen White says “Do not underestimate Satan” now after reading this? what is spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6:12? as a child I have seen Satan do his attacks and people had no clue how it happened. It came from the inside that is why Jesus always with detail with prayer checked that nothing of him was in the way so did Ellen White.

    • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

      My young Brother…well said, but you will be amazed that much is not listening to you or will take heed…BUT, you keep strong and hold the faith, NOT from what you see people acting, BUT from what YOU know is the Lord in HIS house.
      Despite the folly of men, GOD is still in charge and will NOT suffer HIS house and name to be cast down.
      It is a SHAME but, it should STRENGTHEN you not break you down for NOW you know for the sure the devil is REAL and alive, BUT GOD IS IN CHARGE.
      ENCOURAGE the other young ones and remind them that if there was no war, then one must question if there is any truth, for it is the WAR that PROVES that God has a TRUTH and if WE WILL HUMBLE OUR HEARTS AND ASK HIM, HE WILL LET US KNOW.
      There is an answer of truth in this conflict, and the MAJORITY in ALL cases according to the Bibke history and EG WHite is NOT always RIGHT, this is why you see MOST with this anger about the subject.
      The question is, HAS EVER the majority RIGHT in representing GOD in the BIBLE…then, why would you think the maority will be right in this case, ESPECIALLY when WE (the Laodician church) carry such denunciation from God as a corporate body?
      My brother always in dealing with other, let us remember Titus 3: 1-6…ALWAYS

      • Jose Chavez

        I am holding on strong specially from what I know where I come from and what I have seen. I thank God he gives me the words to encourage these young one’s. It was very discouraging at first but thanks to encouraging brothers like you and so forth we keep going. There is still good humble followers of Christ within our church. We need new leaders who will humble themselves on a daily basis and not take advantage of their position. One thing I do know one way or another God is in control. As an ex Sanatist I say “Pay close attention be vigilant Satan always gives himself away with attitude, pride, un-humble smile, their is always something if we don’t pay attention to these things Satan will have control” How you think Jesus recognize when Satan enter into the disciple? and Jesus said “Get behind me Satan” Satan was all OVER THAT MEETING is funny how one of them said that the General Conference is undercover Satan but yet says it in Spanish WOW>

        • Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.

          Jose Chavez said of the PUC Constituency meeting: “one of them said that the General Conference is undercover Satan but yet says it in Spanish WOW>” I do not speak Spanish. Was this said by Ernie Castillo, vice pres of PUC? Could a Spanish speaker confirm what Jose has heard, maybe listen again and take dictation so it is an exact quote and not a paraphrase?

          • Jose Chavez

            He said that The General Conference is the one who is truly rebelling by things he “Herd” in a meeting in Colombia when the General Conference was there. Which implied that is undercover and is not lead by God. A lot of other Hispanic people agree with me.

          • Ron Stone M.D.

            Sounds like Castillo may be getting his one-way ticket back to the PUC as he predicted! They truly deserve him there, among all the other heretics and apostates.

          • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

            My Brother Christ and His followers were also called heretics and apostates as teaching something the leaders thought was not in accordance with “their rules”, BUT what did sister EG White say about this? Question, to ask. Whos side would I have chosen if I was alive in those days….hindsight is 20/20, so base it on your attitude today not on what you have been blessed with from what you have seen from after the final outcome. Ones attitude today will TRULY tell what their attitude would have been yesterday. Please read.
            “The angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.” We see here that the men in authority are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of Bible doctrine. There are many today who feel indignant and aggrieved that any voice should be raised presenting ideas that differ from their own in regard to points of religious belief. Have they not long advocated their ideas as truth? So the priests and rabbis reasoned in apostolic days: What mean these men who are unlearned, some of them mere fishermen, who are presenting ideas contrary to the doctrines which the learned priests and rulers are teaching the people? They have no right to meddle with the fundamental principles of our faith. {TM 69.1}
            But we see that the God of heaven sometimes commissions men to teach that which is regarded as contrary to the established doctrines. Because those who
            70
            were once the depositaries of truth became unfaithful to their sacred trust, the Lord chose others who would receive the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, and would advocate truths that were not in accordance with the ideas of the religious leaders. And then these leaders, in the blindness of their minds, give full sway to what is supposed to be righteous indignation against the ones who have set aside cherished fables. They act like men who have lost their reason. They do not consider the possibility that they themselves have not rightly understood the word. They will not open their eyes to discern the fact that they have misinterpreted and misapplied the Scriptures, and have built up false theories, calling them fundamental doctrines of the faith. {TM 69.2}
            But the Holy Spirit will, from time to time, reveal the truth through its own chosen agencies; and no man, not even a priest or ruler, has a right to say, You shall not give publicity to your opinions, because I do not believe them. That wonderful “I” may attempt to put down the Holy Spirit’s teaching. Men may for a time attempt to smother it and kill it; but that will not make error truth, or truth error. The inventive minds of men have advanced speculative opinions in various lines, and when the Holy Spirit lets light shine into human minds, it does not respect every point of man’s application of the word. God impressed His servants to speak the truth irrespective of what men had taken for granted as truth. {TM 70.1}

            Present Dangers
            Even Seventh-day Adventists are in danger of closing their eyes to truth as it is in Jesus, because it contradicts something which they have taken for granted as truth
            71
            but which the Holy Spirit teaches is not truth. Let all be very modest, and seek most earnestly to put self out of the question, and to exalt Jesus. In most of the religious controversies the foundation of the trouble is that self is striving for the supremacy. About what? About matters which are not vital points at all, and which are regarded as such only because men have given importance to them. (See Matthew 12:31-37; Mark 14:56; Luke 5:21; Matthew 9:3.) {TM 70.2}
            But let us follow the history of the men whom the Jewish priests and rulers thought so dangerous, because they were bringing in new and strange teaching on almost every theological subject. The command given by the Holy Spirit, “Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life,” was obeyed by the apostles; “they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought. (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers page 70)
            Consider with prayers, where would you have sided with based on attitudes of today???

    • MichaelE

      Dear
      Brother Jose,

      Keep up the
      faith and the ‘fight’, I have been at it since I came into the church at 24,
      just a youth too.

      Many
      leaders (Pastors, Elders, Evangelists, Presidents, etc.) in my early SDA walk
      liked to say the church belongs to the youth, however, it appears to me now
      that the youth they were referring to were more often times their own
      offspring, and not necessarily those that were newcomers baptised into the
      church.

      The church
      I came into did everything, including back flips (Kings Way College marketing),
      to try and engage young people to be interested in, well, Jesus.

      Yet, it
      appears to me some 18 years later that the youth, after (hopefully it is done
      with) all the antics of magic, clowning, miming, theatrical ministries, etc.,
      (that the ‘youth’ of the church have been dragged through, by, I assume, well
      meaning adults and leaders in their lives), for the most part, are still not
      interested in ‘Jesus’, and if they are, it appears many carry a lot of
      scriptural and, especially, SOP doubt.

      On the
      contrary, the youth I have witnessed coming into the church on ‘their own’ (due
      respect to the Holy Spirit and the other Christian influences in their lives),
      appear to have a zest and zeal for bible truth, the SOP, Adventist faith and
      Jesus.

      Many cannot
      understand how and why the existing youth and adults (typically those born into
      the faith) have such complacency about ‘their’ faith and Christianity in
      general. Now before I irk too many here, I do realize that this is not all SDAs
      born into the faith, and that some of the greatest champions of our faith were
      probably born into it. But there has
      been, and, I believe, still exists, especially in NA, a trend to fit the
      ‘secular world’ into Adventism in order to win converts and retain the youth.
      In essence Adventism has been and is being morphed into something unsanctified.

      It has been
      my experience that many SDA offspring seem very confused about their faith and
      church, and I would submit that their often doting parents are a large part of
      the reason why. Why? – I would submit that many parents (many SDA offspring
      themselves) still want a connection to the church, if not for they, at least
      for their children, but they do not order their lives after God’s will and
      therefore the children do not have godly examples to follow. To mitigate this
      some leaders and parents have created various youth ministries and churches,
      with alternative worship styles and ministries and ways of expressing faith,
      but to what advantage. Are the youth spiritually better off with these
      ‘gimmicks’? Not from my experience, in fact, it at times brings the
      whole gospel message into a farcical representation of a fairytale.

      But I
      digress, Jose, keep up the fight, the desire for truth is on your side, let the
      freshness of God’s Spirit guide you. As He does the old truths of scripture
      will come alive and you will see God’s Word being timeless, unchanging and
      profitable for instruction.

      Suffice to
      say, my greatest challenges to date as a believing Seventh-day Adventist have
      been my encounters with ‘SDAs’, leaders and lifers in particular, who seem to
      be anything but the peculiar people of scripture. For me this group
      is more odd than peculiar, mostly because they are those who appear to
      strive to be more like the unbelieving and doubting world around us. Even
      stranger still are those who embrace and take pride in the fact that their practical
      interests and endeavours are more akin to the ‘worldling’ and much less akin to
      the interests and needs of the new believer.

      Keep up the
      fight!!

      Here’s an
      account from Ellen White that might be helpful…

      “There are
      some in Battle Creek who have never fully submitted to reproof. They have taken
      a course of their own choosing. They have ever, to a greater or less degree,
      exerted an influence against those who have stood up to defend the right and
      reprove the wrong. The influence of these persons upon individuals who come
      here, and who are brought in contact with them as roomers or boarders, is very
      bad. They fill the minds of these newcomer with questionings and doubts in
      regard to the testimonies of the Spirit of God. They put false
      constructions upon the Testimonies; and instead of leading persons to
      become consecrated to God and to listen to the voice of the church, they teach
      them to be independent and not to mind the opinions and judgment of others. The
      influence of this class has been secretly at work. Some are unconscious of the
      harm they are doing; but, unconsecrated, proud, and rebellious themselves, they
      lead others in the wrong track. A poisonous atmosphere is inhaled from these
      unconsecrated ones. The blood of souls is in the garments of such, and Christ
      will say to them in the day of final settlement: “Depart from Me, all ye
      workers of iniquity.” Astonished they will be; but their professedly Christian
      lives were a deception, a fraud.” {4T 513.3}

      Here’s
      another quote to help you on your way…

      “Many will
      depart from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits. Patriarchs and
      Prophets and Great Controversy are books that are especially
      adapted to those who have newly come to the faith, that they may be established
      in the truth. The dangers are pointed out that should be avoided by the
      churches. Those who become thoroughly acquainted with the lessons in these
      books will see the dangers before them, and will be able to discern the plain, straight
      path marked out for them. They will be kept from strange paths. They will make
      straight paths for their feet, lest the lame be turned out of the
      way. In Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Great Controversy,
      and Daniel and the Revelation, there is precious instruction. These books
      must be regarded as of special importance, and every effort should be made to
      get them before the people.”—Letter 229, 1903. {Ev 366.3}

      Another…

      “Upon all
      new converts should be impressed the truth that abiding knowledge can be gained
      only by earnest labor and persevering study. As a rule, those who are converted
      to the truth we preach have not previously been diligent students of the
      Scriptures; for in the popular churches there is little real study of the Word
      of God. The people look to the ministers to search the Scriptures for them and
      to explain what they teach. Many accept the truth without digging down deep to
      understand its foundation principles; and when it is opposed, they forget the
      arguments and evidences that sustain it. They have been led to believe the
      truth, but have not been fully instructed as to what truth is, or carried
      forward from point to point in the knowledge of Christ. Too often their
      piety degenerates into a form, and when the appeals that first aroused
      them are no longer heard, they become spiritually dead.”—Gospel Workers, 368
      (1915)

      One more…

      “Those who
      are sent by God to do a special work will be called to rebuke heresies and
      errors. They should exercise Bible charity toward all men, presenting the truth
      as it is in Jesus. Some will be most earnest and zealous in their resistance to
      the truth; but while their faults must be exposed unflinchingly and their evil
      practices condemned, long-suffering, patience, and forbearance must be exercised
      toward them. “And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save
      with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garments spotted by
      the flesh.” The church may be called upon to dismiss from their
      fellowship those who will not be corrected. It is a painful duty that has to be
      done. Sad indeed is such a step, and it should not be taken until every other
      means of correcting and saving the one in error has failed. Christ never
      made peace by anything like compromise. The hearts of God’s servants will
      overflow with love and sympathy for the erring, as represented by the parable
      of the lost sheep; but they will have no soft words for sin. They show the
      truest friendship who reprove error and sin without partiality and without
      hypocrisy. Jesus lived in the midst of a sinful and perverse generation. He
      could not be at peace with the world unless He left them unwarned, unreproved,
      and this would not be in accordance with the plan of salvation.”—Letter 12,
      1890. {Ev 368.3}

      God bless,

      MichaelE

  • Elma Heldzinger

    We believe that Pastor Wilson is a man of God and God has raised him up for such a time as this. We must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

  • Jose Chavez

    Being united with God means being all together in one with him in ORDER. As you can see all over the bible he is a God of order. A women has enough giving birth and raising the kids. So whats going to happen moms become pastors and husbands wifes??? what happen to the pastor of the house being the guy?

  • http://www.facebook.com/vegavillalobosda Dnieper Alahin Vega

    Said the angel, “Rebellion will occur up to the time of the closing of the work of the third angel’s message. Marvel not, neither be discouraged. He who conquered the leader in rebellion stands at the head of this great work. Although Satan may exult and seem for a time to triumph, the first great Conqueror has His eyes upon him, and he can go no farther than He permits. He is permitted to have power for a time to reveal the true-hearted, to prove the faithful, to develop the spurious and separate them from the pure in heart. Rebels will be purged out from among the loyal and true in due time, for the truth has gathered of every kind.” – {CTr 115.4}

  • Lizzie

    This whole issue of WO seems to be culture driven, as it wasn’t an issue b/4 Women’s Lib. The real Q is, “Are we going to have the world dictate our policy and practices, or are we going to to stick with the Word of God?” In the first, the tail wags the dog. In the latter, the dog is guided by its Master. Who’s going to lead us — the world or the Lord?

  • Evelyn P.manalo

    I have”nt yet read in the Spirit of Prohecy regarding women ordaination But what I’ve read is that women can be used by God in many ways in God’s work.A support as a pastor’s wife though women are not ordained.

  • David Peacham

    The Bible is very clear, no question about it. If one of our sons, daughters, wives or co-workers leaves the faith we are to “have no pity” on them. We are to personally “put them to death,” throwing the first “stone” on their heads. If a community should leave the faith, we must destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock,” every man, pregnant woman, or infant. Then we are to “pile” all their possessions in the “open squire and burn it” as well as their homes and business making the “entire town as a burnt offering to God.” (Read Deut 13).

    Very clearly, God commanded us to slaughter without compassion, all which leave the faith in the God of Israel. Of course no one honors these laws, even if commended by God, because they were driven by culture 4,000 years ago that sanctioned such atrocities in God’s name. Because Biblically women are presented as unequal to men has historically been the cause of untold physical abuse. This reflects ancient world beliefs, not God’s Eden ideal of equality.

    Let’s give women equality in ministry that they deserve and not hold to old world beliefs that subjected women to dominate men.

    • Y. Felix

      David, you nail the issue on the head here. People that focus on literalism have to get pretty creative and liberal with scripture that doesn’t align with their beliefs. There is NO WAY we can follow the Bible literally so it makes no sense to try. The “Bible alone” crowd simplify scripture into nonsense. The Bible is literature written in culture as all human written literature is. The irony is that when we put the Bible on too high a pedestal it loses it’s credibility and ability to influence.

    • MAllen

      that is the bible spirit taught by Jesus…..yes let’s burn at the stake all those heritcs. Let us put them on the rack and pour hot water down their mouths until they confess their wrongs and just when they blaspheme the name of God , then we kill them to make sure they go to hell…….PEOPLE, what the heck is wrong with you all…YOU both should be ashamed to even call yourselves Christians let alone children of God. are you sure you were not born in the wrong era? There was a time when black men were believed could not fighter planes becaused they were not smart enough in ww2, but Tustekee proved them wrong and is the MOST decorated fighter squadron in ww2 above all the others. Yes I know, that is not the same right…..There was a timid when they taught they could not play quarterback because they were not smart enough…check the NFL lately? Heck they could never be president in this country!

      Here is my point. Work with me on this, yes I know this is not about out black and white in literal but it in spirit. It is the same spirit that has caused the most untold murders by those who believed that another human race should not be equal with them and then use misapplied scriptures to justified their actions. How many untold millions died in this great land of America in the name of “god Christian folks like us”, due to the color of a mans skin?

      What is the difference in the attitude towards women? We have two spirits, God’s and the devil. Which one do you think is driving the attitude of racism? Do you see any difference in “PRINCIPLE” here? Most of the attitude I see on this site bordelines outright hatred which if it is not checked will be on the front line “casting those first stones”.

      Who’s church is in anyways? Are we so ignorant to think that God has lost control of His church. If we were to stop and take some lessons about the leadership of mother in the bible, we would filled with shame and have more respect for the ones who GAVE birth to us!

      Can the ones who seems to know exactly who in the church belongs to God and who does not, please raise your hands…but before you raise your hands, please read the story of Ananis (forgive the spelling, work with here), and see what God said about Saul (Paul) before his conversion and tell me if the priest knew who Saul truly was!

      All of us needs to do better and act like a child of God. David, thank you for your fairness.

  • Jerod

    ROFL! I love the notion of truth outlined in these comments and the perspective that other perspectives are enemies of God. It’s almost like Jesus never spoke in the NT. LOL!!!!

    • Phyllis Lag

      Yeah, it is fun to see the venom spewing forth backed up by nonsense.

  • Baron Chambers

    This Church, built by JESUS CHRIST, upon JESUS CHRIST, shall not be prevailed against, not even by the “gates of hell”! Let us be very careful to keep our eyes on the “mark for the prize of the high calling of GOD in CHRIST JESUS” & not be distracted by this “smoke screen” of the arc enemy & deceiver! We must firmly, but lovingly deal with this and all other such divisive issues such as homosexuality in the Church of the Living GOD, but not for a moment be side tracked from the real issue here; satan wants us to be so preoccupied that we are unprepared for the greatest event to take place, real soon, JESUS’ coming! “…….hallelujah, hallelujah! He will come in the clouds of His Father’s bright glory…….but we know not the hour” & that’s what satan wants to distract us from because he knows we know not the hour!! Be watchful, be ready!!!

    • Phyllis Lag

      Agree. Jesus, the equalizer. Jesus, the lover of sinners. Jesus, the warner of judgement. Jesus, the one at odds with the mission of many on this site.

  • LAVRIE

    I would like to ask why it matters who as long as the needs of the church are met. Today we have many single parent homes and unfortunately many unfaithful pastors. Sister White was chosen because a chosen man refused to do the work God wanted him to do. Even the rocks will cry out also implies that there are not enough good men today. There are many women who would step up to the call and they could do a work for women that a male pastor should in fact should not do. There are few and far between men of Joseph’s stature of purity in this age unfortunately. This is also why God made women a help meet. We must work together and not be divided.

    • Kin Simth

      Conservatives care because they find power in belief and rigidness. They don’t understand the true nature of scripture and put false emphasis on the wrong things. Many care because it threatens their power and perspective. Ultimately they care because of fear- fear that the house of cards they have constructed from zealot liars will not make anymore sense. They fear God, His liberation, and His modern working in the world. The rest of us, the majority, recognize as you do that this equality in all thing is required above all and that we desperately need to put this behind us. We will. Jesus will prevail.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000458505305 Paulo Cordeiro

    What a powerful statement our GC leaders have made! May God continue to bless them abundantly as they seek to remain faithful to God’s word and loyal to His remnant Church.

  • Ron Swanson

    I see that this lost church’s pope has suffered another defeat. One of the largest regions in the church has officially supported ordination to God’s standard (without concern for gender) at their papal meetings next year.

  • FollowingJesus

    Those of you who think you know what is correct and are making unkind comments about liberals, should check your attitudes. You are not exhibiting a Christlike spirit and it shows. I used to call myself a conservative, but I now believe that followers of Jesus Christ must accept that just like the righteousness of Christ is a free gift to all, so are the gifts of the spirit. We can only live together in unity and love when we accept that Jesus can gift who He chooses with the give of saving souls.

    • Olivia Wright

      Amen. Unfortunately, these so-called conservative christians have fallen trap to to culture and have it all backwards. Fundamentalism is like infancy in a God relationship and as one grows we naturally discard our infantile beliefs of gender, orientation, and righteousness. We grow into Jesus’ ideal. Those that refuse to grow will never understand God fully. We can see that in the conservative voices on this site.