Open Letter to the PUC Delegates

Posted in: | August 15, 2012 at 11:48 pm

Dear fellow Adventist,

Below you will find an open letter to the Pacific Union Conference leadership and delegates, written on behalf of the 7,300-plus unique signees of the christorculture.com website petition.

Please read and forward this letter.
Pray for the upcoming August 19 constituency session and representatives.
Contact your delegates regarding your concerns. Make sure they see this email and have an opportunity to review the letter.

In a few days, as a leader or delegate of the Pacific Union Conference, you will be faced with voting on two profound and related issues:

A vote to alter bylaws so that the Pacific Union will no longer be required to be in harmony with the policies of the North American Division (NAD) and the General Conference (GC)
A vote to approve the ordination of women as pastors.

It is nearly impossible to understate the far-reaching ramifications these two actions will have on the future of our beloved church.

Addressing the First Motion
You are being asked to vote to change Pacific Union’s bylaws in order to allow the union to deviate from GC and NAD working policies whenever its officers and executive committee deem fitting.

The bylaws currently state:

“All the policies, purposes and procedures of this Union shall be in harmony with the working policies and procedures of the North American Division and the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.”

Some in the Pacific Union Conference seek to amend these bylaws by

Striking out the word “All” and replacing it with the phrase “In general,” and
Striking out the word “shall” and replacing it with “will.”

If voted, the current bylaws, which join the Pacific Union to the NAD and the GC, will be replaced with:

“In general, the policies, purposes and procedures of this Union will be in harmony with the working policies and procedures of the North American Division and the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.”

Obviously, these changes go far beyond the subject of female ordination. If you approve this bylaw change, you will effectively be giving the Pacific Union permission not to comply with NAD and GC policies and procedures in multiple other areas whenever it chooses not to comply.

Seventh-day Adventist Church policies relating to tithe, marriage, creationism, and many other vital issues would now all be subject to the phrase “In general.”

To illustrate: Suppose during a couple’s wedding vows to each other, a pastor says, “Bill, do you promise to love and cherish Sally, forsaking ALL others, keeping yourself only unto her as long as you both shall live?” However, the groom interrupts, saying, “I’d like to replace the word “all” with “forsaking, IN GENERAL, other girls.” A marriage under these vows would likely end in divorce.

Likewise, voting for this altered bylaw wording will inevitably lead to the same result. Changing these few words essentially represents a secession from the world church and opens the floodgate to potential future compromise.

Therefore, we appeal to you to vote no on this change to the bylaws. Please do NOT let the wave of popularity for women’s ordination be leveraged into carte blanche permission for the Pacific Union to ignore GC and NAD working policies.

Addressing the Second Motion—”To ordain without regard to gender”

There are four principle reasons why we encourage delegates to vote against this motion. They are, in summary:

In the interest of keeping this letter brief, we recommend you visit the christorculture.com website, where we have provided prodigious support for these four points. At the site, you might also wish to view some of the petition signee’s names and comments.

“Oh, how many times, when I have seemed to be in the presence of God and holy angels, I have heard the angel voice saying, ‘Press together, press together, press together. Do not let Satan cast his hellish shadow between brethren. Press together; in unity there is strength’” {2SM 374.2}.

We will earnestly join with you in prayer as you consider and decide these profound issues.

Sincerely,

Signees of the christorculture.com petition

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Shorter

They call it TREASON even in religion!
Outside legal spheres, the word “traitor” may also be used to describe a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, nation, family, friends, ethnic group, team, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong.
Treason – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stephen Ferguson

Case is point about name calling!
Stephen Ferguson

No doubt they used such other nasty names against Paul and Barnabas when they suggests the Gentile believers didn’t have to be circumcised.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

I guess Christ and the Apostles were all traitors to the Jewish counsel. Luther was a traitor to the Catholic church, knox, Wesley….do i need to keep going. Was not EG White a Methodist, she is also a “traitor” to the Medothist church .
ALL commited TREASON. I guess if you want to be a TRAITOR, you will be in GOOD COMPANY:-)

Gayle Clark

The first Christian church, fresh with those who walked with Christ, and blessed with undeniable evidence of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, had a “General Conference” recorded in Acts 15:23-29, which recognized the need of the Gentile converts to not be held to the same requirements as the Jewish believers. Remember that the ONLY Bible then was the OT and it was full of the God-orders to be circumcised as a sign of loyalty to Him. But this was no longer required for some believers in “the church”. This is foundational recognition that there is need for allowances of difference among practices of faith in the same church. AND I SEE NO WARNING THAT IT LED TO DISUNITY. I do hear Paul strike hard at those who tried to MAKE EVERYONE do as the Jerusalem headquarters did. See Galatians (especially chpts. 2, 5).
Also, we know that the gifted role of “apostles” was considered higher than that that of pastors,(I Cor. 13:28; Eph. 4:11) And we know there was a woman apostle , “highly esteemed of the apostles”, named Junia (Rom. 16:7). She was recognized in the writings of early church fathers as a woman. Any footnoted, scholarly study of Junia will prove this. I have several books on Junia. The most scholarly, full of original quotes and Greek (which can be challenging, at times) is titled “Junia” and can be gotten on Amazon.com.
Mrs. White was given credentials as an “ordained minister” in 1883, 1885, 1887. as well as 2 of those years , a woman evangelist, church planter from PA was also credentialed. I have never read where she objected to her status as an ordained minister. The 1887 one was displayed in the SDA Theological Seminary until 1964. After the women’s liberation movement, it has been downplayed and copies have been hard to get. I have seen one in a book on women’s roles in the church.
Gary Patterson, a retired GC leader, has written a impeccable article or two explaining and citing the policies of the GC, and why the GC is actually in violation of its own policies to deny the Union Conf.s their right to ordain whom they wish. He states that the GC policy on requirements for ordination has no reference to gender and gives “final” authority to the unions. He appeals to the fact that the policy must be changed to not be violated by the GC, in this case. And the GC, can change policy. But for now, the Unions have full rights to move as they have.
Further, this exclusiveness in ordaining has its roots in Catholicism. As a church, we have women pastors all over the world, doing much what all pastors do. This is not about whether women can be called to be pastors. It’s about men formally recognizing what the HOLY SPIRIT is ALREADY doing in women. It’s about the same issue that faced the apostles in Acts 15. Too bad we can’t follow their example. Praying for God’s will.

Stephen Ferguson

Agreed. The problem I see is that in Acts 15 there was firebrands on both extreme – the conservative James and the liberal Paul. It was Peter who was the true hero, who kept the Church together.

No disrespect to Pres Wilson II, but he appears to be a James the brother of the Lord (and even like James no doubt owes some of his position to family connections, not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that.) There are of course many liberal Pauls out there as well.

But what the Church needs now is a Peter, who can help heal divisions and come to an acceptable compromise.
http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Thomas/1542271911 William Thomas

Slight correction but my understanding is that on her 1885 “ordination certificate,” she crossed out “ordained.” Evidently, she did have some issues with being called “ordained.”

Also of note is that she only received “ordination” certification after her husband died in 1881. Ellen G. White occupied a unique role in the Seventh-day Adventist Church — on this, we (hopefully) all agree — and presented a unique situation in relationship to the church body. There is some evidence that, after her husband died, the leading brethren wanted a way to acknowledge her unique status as well as provide a means of support for her: remember that she was a single mother in an era when there was no “welfare” or social security or whatnot. The solution they came to was to issue her ordination credentials.

Note that the women evangelist (I believe it was S.M.I. Henry but I could be mistaken) was “credentialed” but not ordained. Also of note, I for one have never heard that there was any type of ordination ceremony for Sister White. Seriously, can you reference any?

Finally, I think you make the error that many supporters of women’s ordination make. Opponents, such as myself, are not arguing against women having any position or work in the church. Far from it. Ellen G. White had a work in the church, S.M.I. Henry had a work in the church, the woman that the LORD used to introduce me to this saving message had a work in the church. Women have a work in the church, no doubt, but ordained pastors (and local elders, in my opinion) is not one of them.

All the congregation of Israel might have been holy — indeed, the LORD Himself called the children of Israel to be a “nation of priest” — but only Aaron was called to be High Priest.

Valerie Nagle

I noticed the article in the CUV magazine that this issue has already been passed and aproved. I am heartbroken the the CUC has gone against the GC and NAD. I am a female and I was not sure at first where I stood on the issue of women ordination, but after prayer and study am against it. The pastor is like the modern day version of the priest in the Bible and there was never a female priest. The Pastor and the Priest are both symbols of Jesus and His ministry in the temple in heaven on our behalf. A woman cannot fill that role. But her role is no less noble. She is to nurture and teach others, esp. the children. This is a most noble and holy calling, because those she teaches and nurtures are the future of our beloved church. To those of you who may still have a voice in this please vote NO!

Stephen Ferguson

Is that what you think the role of women is – to just sit quietly and nurture children. I recall that Jesus had very different ideals for women, telling Mary to stay at His feet rather than help Martha with the cooking in the kitchen. I recall Ellen White was much more than a humble housewife, but in effect spiritual leader of her Church. I believe other pioneer women in our Church were licenced ministers who were paid from the tithe!

Perhaps a silly question, but if you uphold all the proof texts against women, including the one that says women should not speak or have authority over men, how do you account for: i) Ellen White’s role; and ii) the fact you are speaking now?

J Hersom

Brian,
Let’s examine some of the ideas presented in The Green Chord Dream. Here is a quote from the first page of Chapter 1, page 11:

“The Adventist movement was born in failure rather than success, error rather than truth, darkness, rather than light. . . ”

The author is calling the Great Disappointment “failure,” “error” and “darkness rather than light.” Would you consider a misunderstanding among God’s people resulting from the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit upon their minds which caused them to believe precisely what He wanted them to believe.
We should read the Spirit of Prophecy and see what inspiration had to say about the beginning of our movement.
The Advent movement was based on the sanctuary message of Daniel 8:14. So we must be careful in these last days of earth’s history to read material even within the SDA church!
Marc

If a person does not want to abide by God’s principles there are a lot of other churches that will accept these 7600 people who seek to change our church. this is another sign of the end of times, we know this is coming, we know the church will be in shambles at the end of time and it starts with this. I hope nobody is shocked or suprised by the devils reaches into our church. It’s been happening for years.

Stephen Ferguson

Are you saying you want to leave the SDA Church if CUC and PUC now ordain women? I believe the Seventh-day Reform Movement, who are so conservative that all ‘non-essentials’ are essentials, being in effect the Sevy-Taliban, are not likely to ordain women any time soon.

As for me, I hope we can continue to be brethren under a broad Church. If you look at the history of the SDA Church, that didn’t even embrace the Trinity or sola fide at first, there always has been theological diversity. That has always been a strength – not a weakness.

http://www.facebook.com/escuela.baltimore Escuela Sabatica Baltimore

“Let such ever bear in mind that God has a church upon the
earth, to which he has delegated power. Men will want to follow their own
independent judgment, despising counsel and reproof; but just as surely as they
do this they will depart from the faith, and disaster and ruin of souls will
follow. Those who rally now to support and build up the truth of God are
ranging themselves on one side, standing united in heart, mind, and voice in
defense of the truth.” 3SM 23.1

Read: https://sites.google.com/site/care4puc/

Stephen Ferguson

Yes, and these delegates at CUC and PUC have, after earnest prayer, decided to vote to end gender discrimination.

Ms. Lynelle

It strikes me that the Sabbath command is not quoted in entirety as the other 9 commandments in reference to God’s law by various apostles, or even Christ, in their writings–because it was “understood and assumed” to be pivotal and unchanged to every Hebrew/Jew. Likewise, neither was the specifying that the role of priest, or flock leader, was to be male. The under-roles, such as elder or deacon, newly created for the Christian believers, therefore were specified to be gender specific. If the priests and leaders were to be men, and the elders and deacons were to be men, We must ask ourselves, Why, then, would the roles of the ascending levels–specified as male, suddenly have a change of gender-specific considered as an option–and now the men are lead by a female?

Jesus and the apostles specified that we are to be a “peculiar” people (Dt 14:2, 26:18; Tit 2:14; 1Pt 2:9; Ex 19:5; Ps 135:4) unlike the Gentile nations (i.e. pagans) of their day, who surrounded them. The pagans believed in a female god, Ashtar, Inanna, Ashtoreth, ,Isis, Ishtar, (mother of god, Lady of heaven, earth, and netherworld), etc. as history attests.

Clearly, our Creator God, I AM, wishes to create a clear distinction between Him and His people, called by His name, from the counterfeit religions created by the enemy of souls. If Jesus is our High Priest, and we have a woman in that role, how happy is the enemy that now we have a female representing God, just as Satan does?

This is less about “equality” than it is about becoming like the nations surrounding us. “And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us…” 1 Samuel 10:19. God (Christ) stepped aside and allowed them their king, “…Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands.” (last part)

Satan is the master of redirection. He makes it appear to be about one thing, when, in the larger scheme of things, it is really about another–one that usurps Gods type/anti-type design (ref- Temple in heaven/tabernacle in the earth, Christ our High Priest/Aaron & tribe of Levi–men in it). How delighted would the enemy of Christ be to undo this.

Because of this, I stand by my conviction that Christ’s role as our High Priest should be typified by having males only ordained to service.

Another woman I met said:
“To me one of the most beautiful depictions of Christ loving the church is illustrated in the unadulterated female-male marriage union. This is a very distinct male/female role here. Heads of church are part of the priesthood, in other words seed of Abraham, representing a patriarchal role of the Male-Christ, ministering to the woman-church. To say that women should hold this role is to go down a very dangerous path where culture has more say than Biblical teachings. If a woman can represent the symbolic patriarchal role, very subtly, our minds will then become changed to what our roles really are… So a woman is head of the church, and what…symbolically marries has a bride who is the church? Whoa…”

Lee

What a beautiful depiction of truth you have here, Ms. Lynelle. To see all of this in the beautiful light of the sanctuary and how we are to reflect the truth of Jesus’ role as the husband and the church His bride.Thank you so much for sharing it. This is something we all need to hear and consider and you put it so very well.
MAllen

You stated, “This is less about “equality” than it is about becoming like the nations surrounding us.”
“The pagans believed in a female god, Ashtar, Inanna, Ashtoreth, ,Isis, Ishtar, (mother of god, Lady of heaven, earth, and netherworld), etc. as history attests.”
May I comment on those two for now. You are aware that the VAST majoirty of the worlds MAJOR religions, Chriistians, Islam, Hebrew, etc. does reject women as clergies??
If we want to reject the WO, then, are we not becoming MORE “like the nations surrounding us” instead of a peculiar people who accepts it different from them?? Think about it. I keep hearing this argument and it makes NO SENSE. It is circular reasoning. How can those who want WO, be accused on wanting to be “like the nations surrounding us” when 90+% of the world do not accept WO?? The Catholics have over 1 billion members and Islam is the FASTEST growing religion in the world and they are dead set against WO??
Isn’t it MORE like those who want to FOLLOW the NON acceptance of WO closer to FLOOWING the WORLD?? Let us be reasonable here in our LOGIC and FACTS.
Next….
Satan is the master COUNTERFITER…YES.. you must agree. He does NOT come up with anything ORIGINAL…YES…ok then. Let us reason together.
Since God (ALOHYIM / ALOHEIM plural), was the first to exist that means anything else must follow…then let us start.
If Satan has not come up with anything original, that meant he must have COPIED what EXISTED in the first place thus corrupting it to DISTRACT you away from the TRUTH ABOUT GOD (ALOHYM /ALOHEIM plural). See the Hebrew translation and definitions of the word to get a true definition in regards to GENDER of the word including the word “Ruach” which is the Hebrew word for “Holy Spirit” in a female GENDER as all Hebrew and Arabic has a male or female attachment to all their words…by the way, Christ natural tongue was Aramaic sincehe spent a good portion of his life in Egypt (please see Bible history on this as all scholars agree) .
The fact that all these PAGAN religions have FEMALE Gods should be telling you something, YET THOSE SAME religion do not want a female clergy. Think now??
EXAMPLE, the CATHOLICS who have Mary as the “MOTHER OF GOD (Jesus)”. Who is Mary COUNTERFITING in the Godhead? Is it POSSIBLE we have turn the truth into a lie and calling the LIE the TRUTH?? Isnt this what has happened in all ages, so that when the TRUTH comes, we RUN from it. isn’t this how the Devil works??
I beg you all to READ Romans 1:17-26 and read really closely the words, especiall in verse 20.
What EXCUSE do we have not knowing the truth on this matter, when GOD said we should have none…IS GOD A LIAR?? Then why all the confusion or is it just WILLFUL BLINDNESS on OUR part?
I will address the homosexuality link another time for time sake. Pray on these thing. Respectfully MA

Ms Lynelle

My conviction that God designed that the (male role) representation of him be consistent in the priesthood in the desert of Sinai, all they way down to the present day still stands. I will ask him when I get to heaven.

As for you, I respectfully say, “A man convinced against his will, if of the same opinion still.”

MAllen

Sorry, did see your reply…rather late than never.

You are aware that the word “God” in Gen. 1:1 when translated in the Hebrew is the word “Elohim” which carries both the male and female gender speaking in plurality? You are also aware that this applies to most of the time in the act of creation when you see the word “God”?

If this is the case How do justify that “The male role representation of him” is correct when it is define and translated as both male and female?

If what I say is true and it is very much so (check it out for yourself), then the argument for male priesthood will not stand now would it?

Consider?

Here is another question for you to consider. What was the name name God gave the woman in the Garden? Read Gen. 5:1-2 and ask yourself why, then reconsider if it is the male alone is the image and likeness of God or in Hebrew, Elohim?

Yolanda

This meeting is currently in session … let’s all be praying …
http://www.AdventismoRelevante.com/ André Reis

Apparently the petition did not have any sway with the delegates.

79% YES
21% NO

Stephen Ferguson

Shouldn’t that tell you something about the massive silent majority in favor of WO, despite a very vocal minority who signs petitions?

Mark N

Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of thegeneral body …. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing, is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church, in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.—Testimonies for the Church 9:260, 261

I testify to my brethren and sisters that the church of Christ, enfeebled and defective as it may be, is the only object on earth on which He bestows His supreme regard…. His authority should be kept distinct and plain before the world; and no laws are to be acknowledged that come in collision with the laws of Jehovah. If in defiance of God’s arrangements the world be allowed to influence our decisions or our actions, the purpose of God is defeated. CET 206, 207

Stephen Ferguson

And yet Ellen White said that there were times when the GC didn’t reflect the will of God.

Mark

A New Denomination Not Needed
You will take passages in the Testimonies that speak of the close of probation, of the shaking among God’s people, and you will talk of a coming out from this people of a purer, holier people that will arise. Now all this pleases the enemy…. Should many accept the views you advance, and talk and act upon them, we would see one of the greatest fanatical excitements that has ever been witnessed among Seventh-day Adventists. This is what Satan wants.—Selected Messages 1:179 (1890). {LDE 51.1}
The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a message…. {LDE 51.2}
I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be.—Selected Messages 2:63, 68, 69 (1893). {LDE 51.3}
I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work…. When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God’s commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track.—Selected Messages 3:17, 18 (1893). {LDE 51.4}

Stephen Ferguson

When I was grew up in a very conservative SDA home (not that long ago), conservatives would always make statements about how they believed the GC was apostate. They would support independent ministries and claim that they only follow the Bible and SOP – not the GC.

I now find it ironic that these same people are accusing CUC and PUC of ‘rebellion’ against the GC’s authority. How times change so quickly!

Rick Shorter

Aren’t you are painting with a wide brush my friend, and without pointing out who these “independent ministries” are, that you speak of?

Mark N

13 minutes from the meeting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_4kihGg0ds

A Point to Guard Well—Whenever the Lord has a special work to do among His people, when He would arouse their minds to contemplate vital truth, Satan will work to divert the mind by introducing minor points of difference, in order that he may create an issue concerning doctrines that are not essential to the understanding of the point in hand, and thus bring about disunion, and distract attention from the essential point. When this occurs, the Lord is at work making impressions upon the hearts of men, concerning that which is necessary to their salvation. Then if Satan can draw the mind away to some unimportant issue, and cause the people to divide on some minor point, so that their hearts are barricaded against light and truth, he exults in malicious triumph.—The Review and Herald, October 18, 1892. {Ev 154.2}

As these false doctrines were urged, differences sprang up, and the eyes of many were turned from beholding Jesus as the Author and Finisher of their faith. The discussion ofunimportant points of doctrine, and the contemplation of pleasing fables of man’s invention, occupied time that should have been spent in proclaiming the gospel. The masses that might have been convicted and converted by a faithful presentation of the truth were left unwarned. Piety was rapidly waning, and Satan seemed about to gain theascendancy over those who claimed to be followers of Christ. {AA 580.2}

I have never felt so saddened and astonished by the disrespect shown our president. To disagree on points of doctrine and to discuss and debate it in a civil matter, warmly with Christian brotherly tenderness and affection, just as the early church did on the point of circumcision and diet and other matters. But to abruptly cut off the General Conference President whom the LORD Himself has set up (Daniel 2:21), and then for the audience to applaud that; I have never felt so saddened for our church. Who cannot wail and bemoan the state of our church at a time like this? The shaking has already started and all that can be shaken will be shaken. Christ is coming soon my dear brothers and sisters, and I say that we lay aside these differences to preach the salvation of Jesus Christ to a fallen world. What would Christ have said at such a meeting? Could you imagine His sadness? With tears in His voice He would call us a stiffnecked people. Satan would have us divided on non-essential points of doctrine not pertaining to the salvation of souls, and I know with certainty that Satan and His angels exulted yesterday. Regardless of where the issue of ordination goes, with the damage that all of this has done, Satan is triumphant.

Daily the church is becoming converted to the world. 8T – 118

In the church at Antioch the consideration of the question of circumcision resulted in much discussion and contention. Finally, the members of the church, fearing that a division among them would be the outcome of continued discussion, decided to send Paul and Barnabas, with some responsible men from the church, to Jerusalem to lay the matter before the apostles and elders. There they were to meet delegates from the different churches and those who had come to Jerusalem to attend the approaching festivals. Meanwhile all controversy was to cease until a final decision should be given in general council. This decision was then to be universally accepted by the different churches throughout the country. {AA 190.2}

…
This question was warmly discussed in the assembly. Intimately connected with the question of circumcision were several others demanding careful study. One was the problem as to what attitude should be taken toward the use of meats offered to idols. Many of the Gentile converts were living among ignorant and superstitious people who made frequent sacrifices and offerings to idols. The priests of this heathen worship carried on an extensive merchandise with the offerings brought to them, and the Jews feared that the Gentile converts would bring Christianity into disrepute by purchasing that which had been offered to idols, thereby sanctioning, in some measure, idolatrous customs. {AA 191.2}

…
The Holy Spirit saw good not to impose the ceremonial law on the Gentile converts, and the mind of the apostles regarding this matter was as the mind of the Spirit of God. James presided at the council, and his final decision was, “Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.” {AA 194.3} This ended the discussion…{AA 194.4} In this instance James seems to have been chosen as the one to announce the decision arrived at by the council. {AA 195}
The four servants of God were sent to Antioch with the epistle and message that was to put an end to all controversy; for it was the voice of the highest authority upon the earth. {AA 195.3} The council which decided this case was composed of apostles and teachers who had been prominent in raising up the Jewish and Gentile Christian churches, with chosen delegates from various places. Elders from Jerusalem and deputies from Antioch were present, and the most influential churches were represented. The council moved in accordance with the dictates of enlightened judgment, and with the dignity of a church established by the divine will. As a result of their deliberations they all saw that God Himself had answered the question at issue by bestowing upon the Gentiles the Holy Ghost; and they realized that it was their part to follow the guidance of the Spirit. {AA 196.1}

The entire body of Christians was not called to vote upon the question. The “apostles and elders,” men of influence and judgment, framed and issued the decree, which was thereupon generally accepted by the Christian churches. Not all, however, were pleased with the decision; there was a faction of ambitious and self-confident brethren who disagreed with it. These men assumed to engage in the work on their own responsibility. They indulged in much murmuring and faultfinding, proposing new plans and seeking to pull down the work of the men whom God had ordained to teach the gospel message. From the first the church has had such obstacles to meet and ever will have till the close of time. {AA 196.2}
Mark

The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a processof reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principlesof truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established.Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}
Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1}
I hesitated and delayed about the sending out of that which the Spirit of the Lord impelled me to write. I did not want to be compelled to present the misleading influence of these sophistries. But in the providence of God, the errors that have been coming in must be met. {1SM 205.2}
An Iceberg! “Meet It”
Shortly before I sent out the testimonies regarding the efforts of the enemy to undermine the foundation of our faith through the dissemination of seductive theories, I had read an incident about a ship in a fog meeting an iceberg. For several nights I slept but little. I seemed to be bowed down as a cart beneath sheaves. One night a scene was clearly presented before me. A vessel was upon the waters, in a heavy fog. Suddenly the lookout cried, “Iceberg just ahead!” There, towering high above the ship, was a gigantic iceberg. An authoritative voice cried out, “Meet it!” There was not a moment’s hesitation. It was a time for instant action. The engineer put on full steam, and the man at the wheel steered the ship straight into the iceberg. With a crash she struck the ice. There was a fearful shock, and the iceberg broke into many pieces, falling with a noise like thunder to the deck. The passengers were violently shaken by the force of the collisions, but no lives were lost. The vessel was injured, but not beyond repair. She rebounded from the contact, trembling fromstem to stern, like a living creature. Then she moved forward on her way. {1SM 205.3}
Well I knew the meaning of this representation. I had my orders. I had heard the words, like a voice from our Captain, “Meet it!” I knew what my duty was, and that there was not a moment to lose. The time for decided action had come. I must without delay obey the command, “Meet it!”. {1SM 206.1}

Stephen Ferguson

Is ordaining women against SDA doctrine? The only doctrine I can see on the issue if FB#14, which explicitly reflects Gal. 3:28. If anything is against ‘doctrine’, it is a move to ban women’s ordination based on a GC policy.

We can’t have it both ways, we can’t pretend to uphold the radical egalitarianism of the Gospel and yet allow any discrimination to occur. We might want to remove ‘nor male or female’ from Gal 3:28, but we can’t and we know in our hearts we shouldn’t.

As for claims about ‘equal but different’, I somehow recall that was the type of line used to enforce Segregation in the Deep South? As Christians, we can’t continue to allow the evils of the world to control us.

Mark

If you use Galatians 3:28 to place no distinction between man or woman, then that passage in a sense could be used to support gay marriage. Paul did not mean that men and woman were exactly the same as implicitly evident in his other writings regarding the roles of men and women. And we know that there is a marked difference between men and woman, as God created us, and as the divinely inspired writings of Paul show us. I find more important than this issue or the many other issues that I am sure will come into controversy, but how this issue has been handled. We must understand that imperfection of character is a sin, and the way that many have acted on both sides has brought Christ to open shame. I pray with all of my heart that this is resolved soon, but I know according to the Testimonies that it will only get worse and worse until the close of time.

Stephen Ferguson

No it couldn’t and that is frankly, with respect, an absurd argument. Gender and race are about ‘being’ a human – and all human beings are equal. By contrast, homosexuality is about sinful action. Even if someone claims to have a homosexual orientation, but resist the temptation and remain celibate, are uphold God’s standards of behaviour and would deserve our love and respect.

This fear that WO will lead to homosexual ordination appears to be the ‘Red under the Bed’ theme that really scars people. If you look at Ex 23:3, you will note that it is quite immoral to just a case because you think more widely that the ends justify the means. We must only look at this issue on WO by its own merits according to scripture and SOP. If we want to discuss homosexuality, that is fine, but we must judge that issue on its own and not wrongly link it here.

Moreover, the WO-homosexuality ‘Domino Theory’ (to use another Cold War analogy) is silly because: i) the SDA Church has long recognised women in paid ministry; and ii) we don’t even allow homosexuals to be members, let alone clergy!

http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Thomas/1542271911 William Thomas

Brother Ferguson, unfortunately you are absolutely wrong. Consider this:
http://www.sdakinship.org/.

Not only are there practicing homosexuals who are Seventh-day Adventists, there are also those within the church who advocate acceptance of their “lifestyle.” Moreover, many supporters of practicing homosexuals within the church are using the argument that women’s ordination as pastors and local elders is a step to the acceptance of practicing homosexuals ([snark] as long as they are in a “committed relationship” [/snark]) to those offices.

And again, to emphasize, it is supporters of homosexual practices within the church who are making the connection.
Stephen Ferguson

SDA gays might try to link the two but again that is just as contrary to Ex 23:3. Given the SDA Church doesn’t even really allow openly-gay members, I think the fear of homosexual pastors is irrational.

The issue of gender is an issue of ‘being’ – like race. By contrast, homosexual sin is an ‘act’. They are not in any way alike. I agree we need to remind homosexuals themselves of that point.

For example, a person who claims to have ‘homosexual orientation’ (if you believe that) but who is a faithful celibate and avoids sexual temptation would in our Church have the right to be ordained as a minister. There are already ordained ministers in that exact situation – and many run the ‘cure’ ministries. Just as Jesus said it was better to remain celibate and so did Paul.

By contrast, someone who is born a women or born black cannot either sin or obey God to change that position. That is just how they are.

Thus, homosexuality and gender (or race) are totally different. Again, I agree we need to remind homosexuals who try to use those arguments.
http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Thomas/1542271911 William Thomas

Brother Ferguson, thank you for your reply and your poll results from your “liberal” church in Australia. However, they do not address the issue that was raised. The point is, legitimately or not, the equation is being made between the ordination of women and the ordination of homosexuals.

Also, your poll results don’t tell the story. While I personally find it gratifying that 95% believe homosexuality was a sin (and I kind of wonder about the other 5%, but that’s another story), that is still not the same question of whether you would think that a homosexual can be ordained as a pastor or local church elder. For example, I have run into cases where members agree that adultery is a sin but, when their personal friend or pastor is caught in the act, they would then argue that that should not disqualify them from their ordained office. Suddenly the mantra is “love” and “forgiveness” and “we all have sinned” (sentiments I wholeheartedly agree with even as I do believe that adultery does disqualify someone from ordained office). So although it may seem strange to both of us that someone can call an act a sin and yet still believe that a practitioner or supporter of the act can still be ordained, such, unfortunately, is often enough the case.

Moreover, polling changes. For example, not even ten years ago over a two-thirds majority in the United States were opposed to same-sex marriages. Now, less than ten years later, a small plurality supports same-sex marriage. Culture, people change but fortunately, GOD does not.

Finally, the example of the celibate homosexual pastor is off the mark. That again is not the issue. The issue is with the homosexual who is engaged in a “committed” same-sex relationship. The argument — which I adamantly disagree with — is that such an openly gay yet monogamous individual should be allowed to be ordained. After all, so the argument goes, they are not being “lustful” or promiscuous.
http://twitter.com/7thDayWarrior Brooks K Potter

Here is the connection: Homosexuals and WO proponents both use the “discrimination card” as their basis for having equality and therefore, qualifying them to have any position in the world church. Once you “open the floods gates” all hell will break loose in the church, and that is exactly what happened in the mainline Protestant churches.
Stephen Ferguson

I did an informal poll at my SS in quite a ‘liberal’ Church in Australia. 95% were in favour of WO; however, 95% believed homosexuality was a sin.

I don’t think you need to fear any realistic prospect of WO leading to homosexual pastors any time soon.
Ron Stone M.D.

Uh, apparently you haven’t been to the Glendale City SDA Church, as well as a few others down in SoCal! GCC also has a paid “church administrator” who is gay.

Please, help us Lord.

One of the resolutions in the “Women’s Rights Movement” is to take over the pulpit. It saddens me to see that this church has bought into this resolution.
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If a woman being seen as an equal to a man will destroy the unity in church does the church have unity to start with? – What determines who is male and who is female? How does the church deal with the inter-sex situations? I say that is ordination is based on “sex” then we should lay out clear definitions of what makes a man ….In intersex cases the doctors measure the length of male organs and then decides how to assign sex and ultimately gender… if we don’t have a policy that can deal with these common cases then we need to reconsider…..reality check 1 in 200 persons have some form of inter-sex condition. This policy is crazy and makes me laugh at how caught up in backwards cultural issues we can get…..if there will be NO SEX in heaven why are you making such a BIG deal over it down here?

If a woman being seen as an equal to a man will destroy the unity in church does the church have unity to start with?

http://www.ted.com/talks/alice_dreger_is_anatomy_destiny.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPY28QW4T4E&feature=youtu.be
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Ron Stone M.D.

I am not the only one who feels the GC has been a “do nothing” organization, especially with Jan Paulsen as leader. He was an embarrrassment to our SDA Church as far as actually doing anything, especially in regards to the outward rebellion of elements of the NAD and elsewhere.
He should have been canned years ago, instead of waiting until we had a dire emergency, as we do now, and then expect President Wilson to “fix” everything.
Don Schneider was no better at actually doing anything about these matters, as his record shows.
Deborah Risinger

Bill…what real choice did the GC have? We are a free people….free to choose. I’m a convert as so many are…perhaps yourself..Such a stark difference from the Catholic background I have.
The Catholic Church tells us “what to think.”…..the Remnant Church/SDA Church teaches us “how to think” ..in my view.
It seems with this issue, as with many others facing us,it causes all of us to “have to think/access” what we believe our freedom in Christ actually gives us. It gives us “freedom.” God treasures our freedom.
I hope for myself and all others that we would treasure our freedom to choose, and examine ourselves in the sense that…would I violate my freedom in eternity? Scary thought….God says He will not allow sin to arise a second time…This is an experience for the church that will either help us draw closer to Christ…or choose to leave Him…
God’s Blessings’
Deborah Riinger

I can remember watching a taped video of the 1995 GC…my husband and I have never gone to one. To our pleasure…when Jan Paulsen
and his wife came to the mic. to address the world church…in the course of his address, he did say….he agreed with the world church in “not” voting to ordain women. We were so pleased we played it for other church members so they could witness what he had to say…
Perhaps we think some of the leaders in the church have a power that does not exist? Perhaps? How did Moses handle the people? Are we expecting God to intervene as He did with Korah? What happens to us…our attitudes and “perceptions” about “what we think the motives of others are” when God chooses to be silent?
This is difficult ground to walk on…I am trying to be generous in my thoughts when I have no clear absolutes.(IE..what can and cannot be done)…either way….there is a mutuny going on and all those involved need our prayers. They are walking on dangerous ground…we have a work on their behalf to do….prayer is a good weapon of choice.
God’s Keep Us Faithful to Christ….
http://www.facebook.com/diana.iversen.94 Diana Iversen

Dr. Stone, you would do well to research Paulsen’s background for your self cause then you would understand the purpose of his leadership style. You will be shocked to discover who his doctoral thesis mentor was. This discovery will put all the puzzle pieces together. Ever heard of infiltration going all the way up?
M Summers

Hi, have you heard of Rick Howard and his book “The Omega Rebellion?” This book deals with spiritual formation within our church.
Baron Chambers

To the extent that satan has infiltrated The Church & is reeking such division & confusion is, in my humble view, evident that the people of GOD have fallen down on a fundamental command. “Pray without ceasing!” 1 Thes.5:17 Praying earnestly for each other safe guards ourselves against corporate & personal attacks from without!
M Summers

Wow, praise God Deborah, your words above were truly inspired from God. I am so moved by them, and how true, how true. Please share this in an email to all PUC and the other conference that has already voted. In fact, please send to as many leaders that you can find address to. This is POWERFUL. Thank you for sharing
Valerie Nagle

AMEN!…I wish there was a “Like” or “Agree”, “Disagree” button on these comments!
Valerie Nagle

By the way, there are TWO PUC’s…PACIFIC Union Conf, which brother Stone here is refering to…and COLUMBIA Union Conf. of which these other posts are about…
Bill b

Good we don’t want your dirty money..
Valerie Nagle

I do not know why women want ordination, I am a woman and do not want it. I DO however want to be a part of sharing the 3 Angels messages with the world, and I fully believe I can do that WITHOUT being ordained!
Valerie Nagle

there are many pastors that are not odained. (by man)…A woman can serve in the pastor roll without ordination, unless they are in a country where there are no or not enough ordained men pastors.
http://www.facebook.com/sharon.mcgillivray Sharon McGillivray

I agree
Deborah Risinger

M Summers….yes..Pastor Rick’s book is not just informative, but he speaks from personal experience….it would be wise for us all to read it…it is an attack on the church…bait…to draw away the unsuspecting into mystism…..it is the world I also come from…God’s people need the Holy Spirit’s guidance. In saying that…staying close to Christ is our greatest defense..Amen.
Angel

For your information Ted Wilson was in the committee which was formed in 2001 to introduce and implement spiritual formation in SDA Church…another interesting thing is that Ellen White was ordained minister to the SDA Church. Our GC with statements and practice is double minded and inconsistent…i don’t like that!
They are very shallow and manipulative as well is what i am finding more and more… they changed the logo of the SDA getting rid of the 3 angels logo and no wonder the “great controversy ” project runs on “The great Hope” book which is nothing like the E.White book…There is something fishy about our GC and i don’t like that!
Deborah Risinger

Forgive me…but I have some questions…is it not true that there is a biblical order of things? Can God be seen in confusion? Is it not true there is a criteria (in Timothy) to be met for those men being called to a certain service for the body of Christ?
To ignore specific directives in God’s Word is as much of disobedience as it is to defy a duly, legal vote at a GC Session….am I incorrect with this? If I am…then where do God’s people find direction as to “how to conduct themselves as one body with many members?”
Perhaps I have misunderstood you?
God Keep Us Faithful to Christ
http://www.facebook.com/brian.fort.9212 Brian Fort

You brood of vipers!

Your anonymous here so I’m just going to say some things to you that I would normally do discretely. Feel free to respond to this however you wish.

You are not a Seventh-day Adventist. I hope you are not a pastor, because you have no ability to think critically about what you are saying. It’s just plainly evident. If you have a master’s degree then whatever university gave you that should be discredited.

First of all, in The Bible their are plenty of instances where self proclaimed believers were harshly criticized for their hypocrisy. The True God is not care-bears, teddy ruxpin, unicorns, glitter, pixie sticks, rainbows, and fairy dust. Jesus was not a push over, and did not teach us to cave in to hypocrites in the name of saving their feelings. The Bible says it is not love to leave a brother in sin. It says that their blood is on our hands if we fail to warn them. It tells us how to do that in Matthew 18:15-17.

While the GC can delegate responsibilities, the GC session never gave them the power to allow other church organizations to ignore the rules of the GC session. That form of organization will never work, and I hope that doesn’t need explaining. The fact is though, the GC session does not allow it according to their rule book (aka manual).

As for ordaining, you are arguing with semantics. If you want to redefine, and confuse, the argument by using the words “ordination” and “ministering” however you wish then we will never get anywhere. Whether you do that on purpose, or because you aren’t proficient at critical thought yet, I do not know. That is not for me to judge. But I do judge your semantic argument invalid and irrelevant.

As for 1 Timothy, women shouldn’t teach men in an authoritative fashion. This is to say that the men have to follow what they believe or get punished. Talk matter of factly like I do, and you will quickly find out that women are in complete control of our local churches. They are brutal. These are the ones who walk around happy and pleasant all the time. But women can teach children and other women, and Paul says this specifically as well. And you mention that Paul said that women must keep silent in church. Somehow, probably because you didn’t think critically about this, you overlook that he isn’t necessarily saying that women should never speak in church. It could be saying that women shouldn’t speak during church service. Seeing as how men and women clearly have different speaking styles, and only men should be pastor’s, it seems pretty obvious to me that Paul was referring to misunderstandings. This would alleviate a lot of stress from Pastor’s having to keep everything so PC that they never really actually say anything substantive. I am amazed how often I will say amen to something, and hear someone else I know disagrees with me completely on the subject also give a hearty “amen!”.

I’ll stop here, although I feel very tempted to address the rest of your hogwash. I’m not sure if you realize that is what it is, or if you’ve been partying with the pigs for so long that you don’t realize what it is that you’re really trying to clean off yourself.

I’ve been where you are at, and I feel sorry for the results you are going to experience. I pray that God still allows you to experience the results of your beliefs, rather than leave you to be.
http://www.facebook.com/brian.fort.9212 Brian Fort

While I realize you may be doing the feminine thing of asking rhetorical questions, I really can’t be sure of that because I am a man. LOL

The answer to your second to last question is: The church manual. You can get it on Adventist.org by clicking on “Adventist Beliefs” (*cough* *cough* hint! hint! to those who disagree with me), and selecting “Church Manual”. I’d like to take a moment to add, not necessarily for your sake Deborah, that it is under “Adventist Beliefs”! I’d also like to point out that apparently not even the pastors associated with this web page follow it. But I digress.

From the church manual 18th edition page 18:

The Church Manual has existed in its current format since 1932. It de-scribes the operation and functions of local churches and their relationship to denominational structures in which they hold membership. The Church Manual also expresses the Church’s understanding of Christian life and church governance and discipline based on biblical principles and the authority of duly assembled General Conference sessions. “God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority.”—9T 261.
The Church Manual is divided into two types of material. The content of each chapter is of worldwide value and is applicable to every church organization, congregation, and member. Recognizing the need for variations in some sections, additional explanatory material, presented as guidance and examples, appears as notes at the end of the Church Manual. The notes have subheadings corresponding to chapter subheadings and page numbers of the main text.

The standards and practices of the Church are based upon the principles of the Holy Scriptures. These principles, underscored by the Spirit of Prophecy, are set forth in this Church Manual. They are to be followed in all matters pertaining to the administration and operation of local churches. The Church Manual also defines the relationship that exists between the local con…

Hope that helps. I’d be surprised if I found at least one person to listen.
MAllen

Bible and Spirit of Prophecy
http://www.facebook.com/brian.fort.9212 Brian Fort

This sounds great, but I can’t help but think that we are all kings and priests. And we, the church members, are given power to face this issue. Read the church manual, the power granted to us, and the limits of power by church leaders are defined in the manual.

The majority of Adventists do not live in first world countries that are as “progressive” as the countries most of us here on this webpage probably live in. And I’m not sure the majority of the world church realizes what is going on here. After all, most are in countries where they have little time for paying attention to what is going on thousands of miles away. However the spread of smartphones and automatic translation (Babel reborn, one world language?), and the inexpensive cost of cell phone coverage of 3rd world countries (much cheaper than here!), means that we can get the word out to them easily.

I believe if they found out they would send GC representatives to the next session and fire all of the current GC leaders, make it even clearer that the manual says no to women’s ordination, and put all church organizations back under the fear of God.
Ron Stone M.D.

Isn’t the Columbia Union Conference the “CUC?” And the Pacific Union Conference the “PUC?” The other PUC is Pacific Union College, which is in the Northern California Conference.
Ron Stone M.D.

I don’t know anything about Paulsen’s thesis. I do know he was a spineless wimp when it came to handling anything of importance, includiing WO. Simply check his record for yourself.
Ron Stone M.D.

Satan has infiltrated our SDA Church, even in the “higher” levels, as anyone can see, except those with their heads in the sand.
loveGodschurch

@53221e5e7e393a140a6b10ca888e5773:disqus Be careful how you speak about the church and it’s leadership. For a member of Sac Central I would expect better. This church is STILL the apple of God’s eye. It’s leaders need your prayer, and not your unGODLY judgement, which the Bible is VERY CLEAR about.
Stephen Ferguson

Funny you mentioned Eph 4, because Eph 4 also demonstrates that the roles of apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist and pastor are spiritual gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit alone – not by men. For this reason Matthias was chosen by lots (where we get our word ‘clergy’, which means to be chosen by lots).

I do get your point though about name calling. However, I believe there has been plenty of name calling done by both sides here.
Stephen Ferguson

But why should they? If we already do (and have for a very, very long time back some 150 years) allow women to do pretty much the exact same job as a pastor, at the same wage from the tithe, and that we even ‘lay on hands’ through a commissioning ceremony, what is the big deal by giving them the title ‘ordain’?

It all smacks of the same types of ‘equal but different’ arguments used to endorse racial discrimination.
Stephen Ferguson

I am not sure on what basis you can call someone who supports WO ‘you are not an Adventist’. One might say that someone with such an unChristian attitude as yourself is not a Christian!

“To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.” (Tit. 3:2)

“But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect” (1 Pet. 3:15)
Stephen Ferguson

The fact remain, we are all confusing spiritual leadership (i.e. apostles and prophets) with appointed leadership (i.e. elders and deacons). These offices were only fused by the Roman Catholic Church after the failed prophetic revival by Montanus in 165 AD, when the appointed leaders (bishops) claimed to then also be apostles.

Spiritual leaders are appointed by God alone according to spiritual gifts. You will notice that the list of spiritual gifts in Eph 4 includes apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors. For this reason Matthais was chosen by lots, to emphasise that God alone chooses.

By contrast, it is appointed leaders (elders and deacons) who are chosen by human beings. The oft-cited selection criteria of ‘husband of one wife with obedient children’ only applies to these elders and deacons – not our clergy.

Otherwise, explain to me how celibate Paul or Young Timothy could have satisfied these selection criteria? Explain to me how the majority of ordained SDA male ministers can satisfy the requirement of ‘believing children’, when most have kids who have left the Church?

The SDA Church in China shows the biblical model in action. It has young and older women in spiritual leadership as ordained pastors. But it also has older men in appointed leadership as ‘Uncles’, who watch over the Church.
Ron Stone M.D.

Who is going to be the leader in this “drawing of the line?” I agree we need it, but who will lead out?
Ron Stone M.D.

The leaders DO get my prayers, and they get my opinions also. I communicate with as many personally as much as I can. The result? SILENCE!
Ron Stone M.D.

Even the pastors at Sac Central, and not just Doug Batchelor, are very outspoken about how some of our leaders are flushing our SDA Church down the toilet bowl. They’re broadcast live each Sabbath and on the Amazing Facts website.
Rick Shorter

The tithe and offering payers in these Unions. Follow the money my brother.
MAllen

Step up to the plate..and swing the bat:)
MAllen

Step up to the plate..and swing the bat:)
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

if you could tear back the covers…your heart would fail you
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

Brother Ron,
you are a MD, thus a you hold a position of importance in the eyes of the public. I have followed your comments along this site andI am somewhat dismayed. I do understnd you have the right to speak out, BUT, from making the same mistakes as you, in time PASSED, have spent most of my time blasting people, INSTEAD of giving sound BIBLE instructions to HELP, instead opinionated slams.
You may consider the reason you may not be getting the reply from these men and the ‘silence’ is becasue of the nature I and many see in your replys and construction on these men.
Enfeabled as some are in these positions, we MUST be VERY careful as how we treat these men for thou Saul sought David’s life, David did not take KINDLY to the man who claimed he killed Saul who chose to be David’s enemy. David call one his young men to slay him, for he did not care about “touching the Lord’s anointed. Be acreful my brother, thou not all are anointed by God, you may speak contemp on those who are.
Just a word of adive you dont have to listen to, BUT will be accountable for.
Glory to the Family of Heaven
Ron Stone M.D.

I understand your concern, and you may not agree with what I say or how I say it. I have spoken personally to most of the people I have criticized, and did not personally “attack” anyone. The response is always the same–silence or some rationale as to why they don’t do anything or “can’t” do anything.
I realize everyone has there own approach to this matter, some more outspoken and confrontational than others. I accept this. However, I do not accept our leaders introducing or allowing the types of heretical ideas we see out here in California and elsewhere. I am not the only one who feels this way, although each has his/her own way of expressing it.
If you don’t like what I say, you are free to either ignore it or criticize it, as you have done. I have a “thick skin” and can take whatever comes my way.
I also am prepared to answer to God as to what I’ve said and done. I am not calling for the killing or murder of any Church official, but do think there are some who need to be replaced. Again, I’m not alone in this conclusion,l although some may have a more gentle way of expressing it.
Angel

Hi brother! There are many things i like in your posts with some i disagree but it would be nice IMO if we keep the comments short to the point.
Blessings
Angel

Hi there! I liked that way you speak openly…something that is hard to see in SDA church.
You said: “I certainly hope President Wilson will be different.”
What do you see so far?
IMO SDA is in a world of trouble because it is double minded and inconsistent. The GC has in writings / it is in our SDA manual/ that they are the “highest ecclesiastical authority ….” does that sound familiar to you? Just wondering if it’s just me noticing that or not…
Thank you once again for being open expressing clearly yourself!
Sincerely
Ron Stone M.D.

Wilson is certainly different in the way he is handling the problems with our Unions doing whatever they want, despite what the world church has decided and voted on.
So far, his words are much better. Will his actions be any beetter? I don’t know.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

My Brother, I do understand your frustration that we at times are passionate about a position.
What I am saying is that we MUST follow the instructions given by the VOICE of God.
It is one thing to hold a strong belieft, BUT the character of Christ is how we are to HANDLE it, for you and I have many watching us in position of infulence, so we must show this expression of LOVE, even to those who seek to destroy us. It is the greatest expression of love to those who call themselves our enemy…is it always easy, I for one find it very hard to do..YET, it MUST be done…Christ will help us.
How did Christ speak to those who NAILED Him to the cross? Was there not TEARS in His voice as expressed by EGWhite?
How would you address this instructions given in Titus 3:1-6
“2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;”
Now do I agree with everything the GC does or does not? NO. I against alot of foolish man made decisions and actions they have made and taken….Do I think that there are unconsicrated men hold position of authority that should not be there? YES, greatly so and more than we know.
YET, I will take the position of David when Saul sought his life. Please read the story again and seek the priciples of David’s atttitude towards Saul, especially the song he wrote about them when Saul and his sons died in battle…A TRUE ESPRESSION OF LOVE for one who sought his life, YET, no one from the GC you personally know is seeking your life.
David despite his recklessness in many thing, God said had “a perfect” heart. Ask yourself what made God say this about David?? Study and you will see it was HIS LOVE for the people becasue of HIS LOVE FOR GOD.
Is this not the perfect heart we should also be seeking??
That my brother is all I am saying and it is not a matter of, “If I dont like it I can take it or leave it”….It is a matter of IF GOD DOESN’T LIKE IT (my tone and expressions), what should I bedoing about it?
“Who am I to judge another man’s servant, whether he standeth or falleth”, YET there is BALANCE in the Bible on this, for we are all accountable to our brethren, and we are “not be a stumbling block to others” as well, thus ever be so careful how we speak of our brothers around each other and the tones that ‘might’ give the appearance of evil.
Do I struggle with this, GREATLY so. This is why I emphasize it so GREATLY..Let us HELP each other, NOT rile each other up.
You see my brother, thou many say it is between them and God, God says it is between them and their brehten.
Again, how would you interpret this verse in Titus?

“To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.”
May God help us bother for we seek to do His will, NOT ours
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

Brother Fort,
are you aware of the historical on the formation of a “church manual” and the comments by the reformers and especially EGWhite on whther the church should have a manuel….please seek some information on this and please post to be fair to all for or against. Thak you
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

I guess, we are suppose to act like the Catholic church and accept anything that is written in the SDA Church manual or forever be labelled a non-SDA….How sad.
My brother Ferguson, I myself have posted Titus 3 elsewhere on this site becasue of the same aggression i have seen here as you have….we need to all stop this foolishness and remember this Church is NOT ours, it belongs to GOD and HE, HE ALONE will clean it and decide who should be here and who should go…Let us not stand at this door and decide we will be the ones trying to do God’s job deciding who is a SDA and who is not, when MOST cannot even make the right decision as to what food we should or clothes we should wear.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

What does God need to think about..If He knows the end from the beginning, why does he need to think about it?…I heard a great saying and it is this.
“Has it ever occur to you that NOTHING ever occurs to God” Think about it:)
Ron Stone M.D.

Your comparison of Saul and the humanly elected leaders reveals a difference of how one sees the Church being led. I do NOT see God necessarily “annointing” our current SDA leaders. You may, but in that we differ.
I also am not seeking to kill or destroy anyone. I simply ask questions of their words and actions, both personally and to those who are in positions above them. What these people do with what I say is up to them.
And, there are many others who agree with me,even pastors and evangelists. I’ve spoken to many, including some who are noted in our SDA Church. Most agree with me, but would not say the same type of things themselves, mainly because they fear being “punished” by those in positions above them. I understand their position.
Again, I say to you, if you don’t like what I say, then you may continue to either ignore it or respond to it. I will treat you criticisms respectfully.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

My brother you again misunderstood my point. Let me again clearify.
Saul was chosen by the people, NOT God as their leaders. He was chosen by the people. read what EG WHite has to say about this, YET, God told Samuel to ‘anoint’ him king over Israel as a formality, NOT becasue he was a Godly man and obedient to the will of God. Did not God know the end from the beginnning to know that saul would have rebelled, so why allow him to placed there as king? Here is the lesson you missed.
The people wanted a king to rule them as the rest of the nations around them instead of the theocratical system of “Judges and Phrophets” God had set up for them, the same way the SDA cries for the GC to rule over them.
The people cried for a King, so God gave them a king to “teach” them a lesson, no different from us as a people today that it is God who should be leading us BY HHIS PROPHETS, not the voted men and women.
He allowed King to be ordained as a king to Israel (today SDA and GC) people and allowed certain rules in respect to this leadership. (Respect the leadership and only follow as long as they do not go against MY will, BUT, if they go against My will, still hold respect for them, just dont do what they do or follw where they go….WHY??
Becasue I “ALLOWED” them to be in that position and YOU as a man do not know why, plus it will teach you to be respectful to leadership while following me, NOT them if they go from my ways)
Here is OUR lesson from David. Saul was going against the will of God, YET David respected his “POSITION” and NEVER called Saul down publically or tried to “kill” his character. He knew the position was ‘ALLOWED by God and it was God who would remove Saul if He chose to, NOT David, and thus David held respect for Saul even while Saul sought his life.
The REASON why Daivid killed the one who claimed that he killed Saul was becasue of the “DISREPECT” the man had for the POSITION of Saul and thus the “CONTEMPT” he showed to wards God not been afraid to kill one whom God allowed to occupy a certain position. Read why David killed him as David stated.
“2Sa 1:14 And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD’S anointed?
2Sa 1:16 And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD’S anointed.”
By the way David di not rejoice or was happy for the DEATH (REMOVAL) of |Saul from the throne, but CRIED for their death…Read the most beatiful song David wrote for Saul and Johnathon, PLEASE. Ask the question, would you rr be “like” David, if these men where destroyed? We are talking Spiritual not lietral here, so please do not play on my words as before.
Here is the final lesson and point you missed with clarity. The leadership is allowed by God and NONE of us know who and who is not TRULY “Anointed” , so my point is that we must BE VERY CAREFUL in who we blast as been apostate or without spine etc and show no respect of the position GIVEN, ALLOWED, ANOINTED (what ever we may call it as this is the REAL confusion).
Should we be like this man and “not be afraid” to touch the Lords anointed? or are YOU so 100% sure that the ones you are BLASTING are not placed there by God??
All I am saying and I will repeat it with loudness…JUST BE CAREFUL for YOUR OWN SAKE and those around you may influence.
You stated:
“I do NOT see God necessarily “annointing” our current SDA leaders. You may, but in that we differ.”
Can you sit as JUDGE and make such a BOLD statement to ALL the leaders in that office? Is this not somewhat of a SELF RIGHTEOUS position making you no different from some in those office you condemn, becasue they believe themselves to be great men to make such judgement as to who they can condemn? Just remember this BIBLE verses”
if you want to attack a postion they take, then fine BUT try and stay away from attacking them and not call them out as ……all the names thus far.
“Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”
As for the statement that alot of people are on your side in what you say….Should that give validation that you are right? Please pay attention.
“Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:”
“Many who hear the message–by far the greatest number–will not credit the solemn warning. Many will be found disloyal to the commandments of God, which are a test of character. The Lord’s servants will be called enthusiasts. {SpTA04 4.3}
“Human reasoning has ever sought to evade or set aside the simple, direct instructions of the Word of God. In every age a majority of the professed followers of Christ have disregarded those precepts which enjoin self-denial and humility..” (CG 430)
My brother, becasue many believe what you believe, does not and WILL NOT make you right. It si stated “IN EVER AGE…”
My brother, I will answer you respectfull, BUT truthfully with Bible and SOP facts. Let us pray for each other in unity.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

Without a doubt Satan has inliltrated the SDA church..without question a CORRECT statement…Now which one of those leaders YOU know for sure are lead by Satan??
Ron Stone M.D.

Well, I’ll deal with a specific issue. The Bible is clear about homosexuality. Do you want me to name some of the leaders out here in California who endorse, promote, teach, and preach “gay marriage” as OK?
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

It is without a doubt that I believe there are some if not many who endorse, promote and preach gay marriages in California…come now we are talking about California…I can’t even imagine San Fransico…wow!!
The Bible is clear this will be of the last days and sure we as a church is not immune to it. It is a very contagious disease for some. Read Romans 1:17-28 and you will see why. Pay special attention to 20, 22, 26, 27 and it will speak for itself giving you the answer.
Now go back to some of the posting I have made on this subject and you will get your answer on Romans 1:17-26 and why we are meeting on this site in the first place, and why the subject that is in discussion right now is why most of the “against women ordination” is so messed up in their thinking and reasoing, becasue of the very thing they understand about God (Eloheim), as in plural. This is why there is all these confusion with our beloved SDA church.
MY PEOPLE ARE DISTROYED FOR A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE
You are correct of the evils that dwell in High places and MANY A STAR will go out, without a doubt. They are proberbly practising worst that what we see and our hearts would probably fail us if the covers were rolled back….
BUT……..
can we say they are lead by Satan, in that they are given up wholy to him??? Saul now known as Paul, was ‘lead by Satan’ in that he killed the people of God and even by his admission made some blaspheme the name of God before he killed them, so he can ensure they will go to hell…..I would say that sounds like a man lead by Satan…….
BUT…….
What did God say about Paul??

Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Can you say that these men acting of these sins are NOT God’s??? Be carefull how you answer based on the above example. Ananias was prophet and priest of God and he had it wrong about Saul, what do you think abour yourself even if you were calle dto the position as Ananias?
I will repeat the constant point I am trying to make….HATE the SIN, DESPISE, the SIN, BUT……PRAY and LOVE the SINNER….
Do not by calling them down teach others to HATE the SINNER….
THIS is the THEME of my reply to you from day one…. again READ verse 15 what God said about the man Ananias said such EVIL to the people of God……..
YET……..GOD SAID HE IS MINE……NOT Satan’s.
Again, my Christian brother…..Caution, be Careful.
Let us deal with the sudjects and NOT the personalities or sins of these men to bring them to open shame for NONE is able to “CAST the FIRST STONE!”…….CAN YOU?
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

typo – DESTROYED
Ron Stone M.D.

I have never said these people are “entirely” controlled by Satan. My claim is they are either supporting or allowing Satanic ideas into our SDA Church, which can be easily seen. I have also never asked anyone to “hate” these people, kill them, or any such nonsense.
Also, the ones who support and endorse “gay marriage” are do not have a “lack of knowledge.” Most are highly educated with advanced degrees, usually in theology. They know what the Bible says, have rejected it in favor of secular ideas and philosophies.
Some employ gays as church employees. Some actually participate in “gay marriages” as part of their ministerial duties. This is done with the full knowledge of the Union and Conference officials.
If you think I’m nuts, please check this out for yourself.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

Brother Ron….I 100% believe you are telling the truth. Again, I will say it this time with a soft voice….Let us be careful not to call down anyone by name or call ANYONE down at all, despite what they are doing. The Lord will take care of his house. I am like you to call sin for sin, black and white, just like you….but….we must remember to keep to the subject at hand and not the character of the people you disagree with. The subject is “Women Ordination”….Let us leave out the evil they are doing. I believe you are correct, there are alot we don’t see and may not want to see.
You are NOT nuts, just zealous against the evil you know and may have seen…..just let us ourselves NOT sin in our zealousness but adobting the character as described in all the prior point by PRINCIPLE I have been trying make in all my letters to you . Let us again refer to Titus 3 and hold that principle…
A sincere heart from me to you. Brother Allen
MAllen

In regards to your comment “I have also never asked anyone to “hate” these people, kill them, or any such nonsense.”
please take the time “sloooooowly” and reread my comments and consider with prayer, not by impulse, what i have actually said. thank you.
In regards to your comment
“…the ones who support and endorse “gay marriage” are do not have a “lack of knowledge.” Most are highly educated with advanced degrees, usually in theology”
Brother Stone, you are an educated man yourself. I see the title you placed beside your name to let us know this (MD), thus I expect more educated and bible answers from you. Still waiting for Bible references or SOP references to support your position and strong comments. Now know it is easy for one to say that these men do not lack knowledge, but AGAIN you miss the point, with you “thick skin” i can apply this lack of knowledge even with your title?? No disrespect, just trying to make a point. Yes homosexuality is DIRECT as to what God says, but do you think that that GREAT sin that God calls ‘detestable’ will keep them out of His kingdom more than the little ‘white lie’ told by many or the ‘contempt’ we show towards our brother that God calls “murder”? Yes I know you did no say directly any of those ‘nonsense’, but do you think it is acceptable to God to call those HE ALLOWED to be in office to be called “spineless” etc and not think this will cause other to carry the same attitude that may ever take it further?
I am sure you might miss the point on this like you have on so many things I have said but here goes, lets see what you do with it.(Hoping for the best)
Some in these white supremacy groups say that they are speakng for protecting the white race and that there is nothing wrong with publically speaking to protect the white race, They say that they have a right to voice their opinion publically on these matters and how others take it is up to them, that they are not promoting violence against blacks or other races….YET, once their speaches are over, the attitude of those less educated will take the terms they want and work it to violence or whatever.
I again make an appeal to you to what the tone and words used to describe those you are in opposition against in the SDA leadership. I HAVE A GREAT DISAAPOVAL OF MANY of the policies set by these leaders, BUT i want you to look at any of my postings and see any name calling i have made towards them….that is all I am saying. Please stop playing on my words. Help everyone else out by giving BIBLE and SOP quotes and examples for ENCOURAGEMENT, not discouragement. I am sure calling these men “spinelss” is NOT encoraging other in the SDA church to be true Christians. YOU my brother is called to a HIGHER calling than that.
Take care
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

My brother…a difficult task considering the importance of Bible facts aside from personal opinions of which I am not incline to make. What I say MUST be backed up by the Bible or SOP, even if I am misunderstanding the meanings or else I give private opinions with no substance. this is why the long discussions. I wish I can appologize, but I cannot. I will try, but with great difficulty if I am to give the truth on a point.
Angel

I have a question to you. I agree with you that the GC does not = God or His will on every question and it is very tricky to draw the line when we are members to organization which considers the GC “the highest ecclesiastical authority under God…”
It is in our manual.
So how do we solve any conflict of conscience people may have against the GC when the GC is the instance to dictate how we behave /even if contradicts out conscience /.
At the same time ted Wilson says he cares about the freedom of conscience.
It’s quite a mess IMO. There is no way out of it.
http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

“…Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.”
2 Chron 20:20
The biggest mistake of this Church was the creating of the chuch manual, that was NEVER to be written. EG White said it would cause all that we see today,

In ALL ages the failer of the church organizations have been based on men who were give complete power in the church, thinking they can make no mistakes.
We should go BACK to what the BIBLE has set forth to the success of the followers of the MOST BELOVED Lord.
GOD’S CHOSEN MESSENGERS…THAT SIMPLE
First thing we MUST understand is this very quote from the Spirit of Prophecy. I will add to the next reply to keep this one short..or as short as can get it anyways:)
“We see here that the men in authority are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of Bible doctrine. There are many today who feel indignant and aggrieved that any voice should be raised presenting ideas that differ from their own in regard to points of religious belief. Have they not long advocated their ideas as truth? So the priests and rabbis reasoned in apostolic days: What mean these men who are unlearned, some of them mere fishermen, who are presenting ideas contrary to the doctrines which the learned priests and rulers are teaching the people? They have no right to meddle with the fundamental principles of our faith. {TM 69.1}
But we see that the God of heaven sometimes commissions men to teach that which is regarded as contrary to the established doctrines. Because those who were once the depositaries of truth became unfaithful to their sacred trust, the Lord chose others who would receive the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, and would advocate truths that were not in accordance with the ideas of the religious leaders. And then these leaders, in the blindness of their minds, give full sway to what is supposed to be righteous indignation against the ones who have set aside cherished fables. They act like men who have lost their reason. They do not consider the possibility that they themselves have not rightly understood the word. They will not open their eyes to discern the fact that they have misinterpreted and misapplied the Scriptures, and have built up false theories, calling them fundamental doctrines of the faith. {TM 69.2} “
ed stime

Actually the delegates here did pray without ceasing as you might recall, but the selective memory of this site plays into Satan’s hands every day.
MAllen

So Bill,
The men and woman who faithfully worked for their money and pay tithes and offering, their money is dirty? After all that is how the conferences get their money.

So let me get this straight….God fearing people in this PUC conference money is dirty while ungodly people in other conferences, money are clean? Interesting reseasoning. Can you give some Bible or SOP references on this.

Thanks
MAllen
Ron Stone M.D.

Well, maybe YOU don’t want my “dirty money” but it seems the other SDA organizations are very HAPPY to receive it!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000458505305 Paulo Cordeiro

What you are really doing by saying that is putting down our GC leader – a real man of God.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000458505305 Paulo Cordeiro

Excellent response! Keep defending the Biblical truth and coherence that comes from truth! And remember: “For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.” (2 Corinthians 13:8; NKJV)