General Conference Leaders Appeal for Oneness in Christ

Issued by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists – August 7, 2012


A Response by the General Conference Officers and Division Presidents to the Columbia Union Conference Constituency Meeting Action

“Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are” (John 17:11, NKJV).

The unity among disciples for which Jesus prayed is a precious gift of God: this gift must be continually nurtured and is a never-ending and often difficult task of those gathered in His name. Thus the apostolic church could engage in vigorous discussion and even robust disagreement with the assurance that each member’s personal surrender to the Spirit would result in a God-honoring resolution to the challenges and conflicts so that the essential unity of the church was preserved and extended (Acts 15:1-29). Disagreement in such a community of faith is neither fatal nor schismatic, for each believer accepts the responsibility to fulfill the prayer of Jesus by acting and speaking to preserve the unity He expected as indicated in John 17.

Watch Elder Wilson's Address to the Columbia Union ConstituencyUnilateralism—the premise that one individual or one group may pursue its vision of truth at the expense of the unity of the whole—was and is the great adversary of the unified Body of Christ. It ruptures the essential bond which brings people from everywhere into the remnant church, tempting them to prefer one truth above the higher and collective requirement to act in concert with each other. Appealing for a serious recommitment to the principle of church unity, the officers of the General Conference and the division presidents issued a call for restraint in their consensus statement of June 29, 2012, “An Appeal for Unity in Respect to Ministerial Ordination Practices”.

Fully aware that significant differences exist regarding the theology of ordination and the appropriateness of ordaining women to the gospel ministry, they nonetheless urged all entities and individuals in the church to respect current Church policy and General Conference Session decisions, and to work harmoniously through the process established by the General Conference Executive Committee in October 2011. That action established a worldwide three-year study and discussion process culminating with a Theology of Ordination Study Committee which will review all aspects of the practice of ministerial ordination in the Seventh-day Adventist Church including the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, with reports provided to the October 2014 Annual Council meeting of the Executive Committee. This would allow any agreed-upon resolutions to be placed on the agenda of the 2015 General Conference Session, the body accepted by church entities and affirmed by the divinely-inspired counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy to be the official voice and the highest ecclesiastical authority of the church.

The General Conference Executive Committee, the highest deliberative authority of the worldwide church between General Conference Sessions, includes nearly 120 union conference and union mission presidents as voting delegates, along with elected officers, departmental directors, pastors, frontline employees and numerous laypersons.

It was thus very disappointing to the senior leaders of the worldwide church to learn of the unilateral action taken by the delegates of the Columbia Union Conference at a special constituency meeting on July 29, 2012. That action is not in harmony with General Conference Working Policy—the collective decisions of world leadership that define the operating procedures and relationships applicable to all organizations.

Further, the action sets aside the 1990 and 1995 decisions of the General Conference in Session respecting the practice of ordination. It pre-empts the process voted by the General Conference Executive Committee for the current study of ordination theology and practices by committing the Columbia Union Conference to a particular outcome before the study-and-discussion process is completed. In so doing, it asserts the right of one entity to place its conclusions above the principle of unity in the Body of Christ. By this action, the delegates have allowed for a principle of unilateralism and autonomy throughout their territory that can only be disruptive to the harmonious functioning of the Columbia Union Conference, as well as to that union’s relationship with the world church family.

Unfortunately, some conferences, congregations, and individuals may try now to incorrectly cite the example of the Columbia Union Conference itself as justification for pursuing any independent course of action. It is possible that some who voted for the resolution on July 29 may not have fully understood the danger their action poses to the functional unity of their own region and to the wider denomination.

The action taken by the Columbia Union Conference represents a serious threat to the unity of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, and thus, at its next meeting in October 2012, the General Conference Executive Committee will carefully review the situation and determine how to respond. In the Spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the officers of the General Conference and the division presidents again appeal to all entities, organizations, and individuals, including the Columbia Union Conference, to refrain from independent and unilateral decisions and implementing actions on issues affecting ministerial ordination, and to invest their energies and creativity in fostering a vigorous dialogue through the established process about how the Church should recognize and affirm the gifts of the Spirit in the lives and ministry of believers.

An important companion document, organized as a series of questions and answers about key assumptions, assertions and historical backgrounds discussed at the recent Columbia Union Conference constituency meeting or in related communication, will be available approximately Wednesday, August 8, through the media outlets of the General Conference.

August 7, 2012

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001860617861 Adam Gordon

    Sorry, but I do not have the faith some have in Ted Wilson, even though he is in some ways better than some Presidents in our past. Was amazed to hear him and his assistant on 3ABN confirmin ‘the church (meaning the SDA denomination, visible church, organisation etc) is going through to the end’ that it is the ‘apple of God’s eye’, and therefore all splinter groups should rejoin the church. This is NOT honest dealing! SDAs need to TOTALLY study, in full context, all such statements of EGWhite because they refer to the REAL church of Christ – the ‘true and faithful of all ages’ – NOT the SDA DENOMINATION, as the leaders continually and wrongly state!. We all know that just because our names are on the church rolls or we attend church in good standing does not mean we will ‘go through’ or be saved – the ONLY meaning of ‘the church that will go through’ where mentioned by Mrs White IS the ‘true and faithful of all ages’. This needs to be thoroughly confirmed with all she has to say on the subject, not just a few disconnected statements! Every SDA, and particularly all denominational leaders, should read the booklet by Vance Ferrell titled ‘Bringing It Back’ (Harvestime Books should be able to advise where to obtain this). Totally readable and not long, but clearly confirms that the ONLY church of Christ on the earth at ANY time. “God has a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments” – TM p.50. The church organisation will NOT go through, people, nor any who are simply ‘connected’ to it by joining the SDA denomination! Only the faithful and true will ‘go through’, which of course makes total sense and agrees with Rev. 14:12 and other texts. The statement ‘the church may appear as about to fall but it does not fall” mentioned also by Ted Wilson on 3ABN has also been misquoted by many SDAs – 2SM p.380 puts this event only in the time of the National Sunday Law test, when most leaders and church members will apostatise under the severe test applied to SDAs. It is at THIS time that the faithful and true – the true remnant – will not fall – they will continue keeping God’s Commandments. This is what our people need to study, because they are being deceived on the subject, and need to know the need for repentance and obedience that God requires.

    • Quentin Styger

      Just because it’s the church to see it to the end, does not mean everyone on the books within the church are saved, take a look at the day of atonement in the sanctuary service.

  • Jim Reinking

    As I read some of the comments below, it is clear that the actions of the Columbia Union and Pacific Union has created disunity. Something that was of concern to Elder Ted Wilson when he appealed to both unions. The Bible instructs us that all things should be done decently and in order (I Cor. 14:40) Furthermore, we are instructed to “Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.” Hebrews 13:17. The constitution and by-laws that govern the relationship between unions and the G.C. and articulated well in the Church Manual, which represents church policy was simply ignored by the unions in the question. As the last verse of Judges says, “And everyone did what was right in their own eyes.”

    • Felix Mann

      Too bad church policy is silent on this issue, eh? Mr Wilson has no claim on my soul. He himself brought the disunity. To hell with him.

      • Quentin Styger

        No, but your comment tells us who has claim on your soul at the moment.

        Repent and be converted.

        • MAllen

          “Who am I to count another mans servant whether he standeth or falleth”

  • Quentin Styger

    Deacon, elder, pastor are duties prescribed to men by God for specifically men. While it is true that the Holy Spirit came upon both men and women to send them into the world to deliver the gospel, men still had a role in the establishment and building of churches as well as their maintenance and spiritual way forward throughout the ages.

    Women have roles but are not to fill all roles. The real issue is, do we endorse women to fill the role of deacon, elder, pastor.

    I believe the bible is clear that the work done by the offices of deacon, elder, bishop (pastor) are to be fulfilled by men only. If not a single man within the church is found acceptable to fill the role, the church has much deeper matters to address and only make the matters worse by assigning the wrong designate to fill the role.

    Our churches would be better unified if we followed the plans outlined in the bible.

  • Quentin Styger

    The same principles of piety and justice that were to guide the rulers among God’s people in the time of Moses and of David, were also to be followed by those given the oversight of the newly organized church of God in the gospel dispensation. In the work of setting things in order in all the churches, and ordaining suitable men to act as officers, the apostles held to the high standards of leadership outlined in the Old Testament Scriptures. They maintained that he who is called to stand in a position of leading responsibility in the church “must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.” Titus 1:7-9. {AA 95.2}
    The order that was maintained in the early Christian church made it possible for them to move forward solidly as a well-disciplined army clad with the armor of God. The companies of believers, though scattered over a large territory, were all members of one body; all moved in concert and in harmony with one another. When dissension arose in a local church, as later it did arise in Antioch and elsewhere, and the believers were unable to come to an agreement among themselves, such matters were not permitted to create a division in the church, but were referred to a general council of the entire body of believers, made up of appointed delegates from the various local churches, with the apostles and elders in positions of leading responsibility. Thus the efforts of Satan to attack the church in isolated places were met by concerted action on the part of all, and the plans of the enemy to disrupt and destroy were thwarted. {AA 95.3}

  • Larry Green

    That is what should happen. But Satan did not do that. He wants to stay and fight. The only choice God had was to ultimately, and finally, disfellowship him. Satan made his own choice, and God had to accept and respond to Satan’s own choice. Now the church has no choice but to, after many pleadings, accept the choice that has been made by the rebels and the rebellion. Consequences must now follow. The only answer is appropriate discipline, up to, and including disfellowship. Sad and unfortunate, but absolutely necessary for the safety of God’s Church!

  • Ron Stone M.D.

    I agree.The PUC leaders should take all their supporters and start a new religion–The Womens Liberation SDA Church to along with the “gay marriage” proponents (most are the same people) and their “Seventh-GAY Adventist Church.”

  • MAllen

    QUESTIONS…Is this what Christ said to Judas and treated him?? If we say we are to ACT like Christ or be LIKE Christ…Is this what Christ said to Judas or is this how He spoke towards Judas??

    My friend, if we claim to be the follower of Christ, let us take HIS counsel and treat each other by HIS instructions towards those we “SUPPOSED” to be rebels, not according to our own emotional outburst, no matter how ‘justified’ we may think we are. PLEASE read, Titus 3:1-6 and PAY SPECIAL attention to verse 2 and 3.
    May God have MERCY on all of us and especially for those i see making those type of comments of those they ‘suppose’ to be in open rebellion

  • Quentin Styger

    Is it not better to show where we err in the understanding of Scripture, so that we may reason together as iron sharpens iron, so that we may come to repentance?

    Better to beseech our brethren to repent, than to shove them out the door.

    Jesus seeks that none should be lost.

  • Ron Stone M.D.

    Charlo, sounds like you’re in the wrong website. You need to be over on Spectrum or AT.

  • Quentin Styger

    Your anger belies your intent. Repent and be reconverted, go, sin no more, fix the problems you see to the glory of God as He guides you to.

  • Ron Stone M.D.

    EXACTLY!

  • Ron Stone M.D.

    “Insubordination” is a mild word. I would use “rebellion” and “apostasy.”

  • Stephen Ferguson

    And where in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs does it say women should be excluded from ordination? If anything, #14FB says the exact opposite! Perhaps you would like the words ‘neither male nor male or female’ removed from Gal 3:28?

  • Stephen Ferguson

    Perhaps it is those who oppose WO, who uphold Papal Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession, who deny Luther’s priesthood of all believers but see our clergy as extensions of the Levitical priesthood, and who deny the clear message of equality found in Gal 3:28 (and enshrined in #14FB), which are acting like Uzzah? Where does it say ‘Thus Saith the Lord, Women should not be ordained as ministers’?

  • Stephen Ferguson

    I somehow recall Jesus had an opposite view about the place of women, when he told Martha to leave Mary alone at his feet and not return to the kitchen. I believe Ellen White had similar statements about women engaging in ministry, and I don’t think she was quite the 1950s-housewife you no doubt think all women should behave like.

  • Stephen Ferguson

    Agree. There was no ‘Golden Era’ of Adventism. Many of our early pioneers embraced Arianism and were legalists, and it took a long time for our Church (prompted by Ellen White) to embrace the Trinity and salvation by grace through faith. However, one things our pioneers did have was a good attitude – an attitude of openness to new light, which they tested by scripture.

    The moment the SDA Church thinks it knows it all, is the moment it becomes just another apostate Protestant Denomination that has stopped the Reformation Process!

  • Stephen Ferguson

    It is because like the previous 3 studies, which in themselves found no theological barrier to WO, it will be watered down by the Divisions and GC and the recommendation will be not to endorse WO. The Unions in NAD know this study is just a stalling tactic where the outcome is pre-ordained (no pun intended).

  • Stephen Ferguson

    No doubt people used similar arguments when the invoked the Curse of Ham to support slavery, segregation and racism.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

    KMJ asked you for the BIBLE Scriptures stating that women are not to be ordained…can you please answer the question…thanks

  • Stephen Ferguson

    Yes, and then perhaps the GC (and the writers of this website) should not make bigger out of the issue than it need be. No one is forcing any other Union to adopt WO. They have been ordaining women for a long time in China, and see how the Spirit has made those Churches grow!

    With respect, Wilson, Bachelor, Bohr and others are warning that the House could burn down. But then instead of trying to calm things down, they spray gasoline everywhere. They then light a match and say, ‘My way or this whole thing burns!’

    We don’t need a James (conservative) or even a Paul (liberal). What we need is a Peter, who if you read Acts 15 helped calm everything down and prevented schism on the issue of race in the NT Church.

  • Stephen Ferguson

    Again, no doubt people used similar arguments when the invoked the Curse of Ham to support slavery, segregation and racism. Perhaps William Wilberforce was just influenced by the liberal culture of his own time when he tried to end slavery, which many Christians argued was against the instruction of scripture, which said ‘slaves obey your masters’. Perhaps African Americans just wanted to be ‘like everyone else’ when they demanded equality, rejecting the ‘natural order’.

    The point is, in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew or Greek, slave or free (Gal 3:28). This is not the order of the world, but the order of heaven, which should be replicated on earth by the Church. It is only evil human selfishness that still allows discrimination on the basis of gender, race or class to continue inside the Church.

  • Stephen Ferguson

    I don’t think it is clear at all. Show me the ‘Thus saith the Lord, women cannot be ordained as ministers’?

  • Stephen Ferguson

    Interesting argument, Problem though in that:

    1. The text in Gen shows that God intended male and female to be equal, and it was only the curse of sin that women became subordinate. This was not God’s Perfect Will, but rather a prophecy about how men, who have superior strength, will use that strength to subjugate women. God no more wants women to be subordinate than He wants men to starve to death from failed crops. Christ made clear in His teachings on divorce that our relationships should be based on the Pre-Fall Eden ideal, which is one of equality.

    2. The example about Korah is totally irrelevant, because that was the Levitical priesthood. As Protestants, are clergy are not priests – we believe in the priesthood of all believers. Moreover, if we to apply the principle from Korah, it would be to discriminate on the basis of race (i.e. right blood line), which in fact the Judaizer Christians in the NT tried to do. It was Paul who was the champion of pointing out that in Christ there is a raddical shift, so that there is now now male or female, no Jew or Greek, no slave or free (Gal 3:28).

  • Stephen Ferguson

    And do you then say that only Jews can be called as ministers, given all the Apostles were Jewish? Why do you choose gender and not race?

  • MAllen

    Brother Rod, you are a Medical Doctor…I would be expecting a more intelligent, intellectual Biblical based answer. If you believe the SDA church to be the church of God, and His final church on this earth before His coming, why would you want to dam anyone to hell by telling them to continue to sin against God by starting a new church separate from the true church of God, instead of trying to help them by giving them Biblical based answers so they can make an intelligent decision “if” you are right, thus bringing them back to the “truth” IF they are in error? Have you decided to condemn them to hell already and yet “you yourself” have not given them any sound Bible based truth to help them? I am saddened by some of these comments by the “professed” people of God. Let us act the manner in which Christ acted.

    One final question. IF you lived in the days of the apostles, whom would you have followed, the apostles or loyalty to the Sanhedrin Counsel? Be very careful how you answer.

    My prayers for you and all in our church at this time and hour.

  • MAllen

    correction on your name..Brother Ron.

  • Quentin Styger

    While I can appreciate your learned viewpoint as a Medical Doctor, I don’t think the best way to represent Jesus is to hurl sarcastic remarks toward our brethren.

    Many of these individuals may simply be misguided in understanding the tenents which come from the Bible, I would agree that the leaders of the organization which propagate the lies of Satan should be removed from their positions so people who are reliant on the word of God can fill the void.

    I hope the GC starts a special pastoral college to fill the power vacuum which is coming as a result of this shaking, I’m changing my major to theology this week in preparation.

  • MAllen

    One more thing brother Ron and those in agreement with him. Please Read and PRAY if this is the right counsel.

    Acts 5

    34 Then stood there
    up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in
    reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a
    little space;

    35 And said unto
    them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as
    touching these men.

    36 For before these
    days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men,
    about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as
    obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

    37 After this man
    rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people
    after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

    38 And now I say unto
    you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this
    work be of men, it will come to nought:

    39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow
    it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

  • Quentin Styger

    Do you believe the GC of SDAs are the Sanhedrin council?

  • Rick Shorter

    Well said, Yolanda.
    Neither is there any text in God’s word that says, REMEMBER NOT TO KEEP THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK HOLY.

    They all know it’s understood. That’s why they call themselves SDAs. They need prayer.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gbeorg Michael Allen

    Thou many used this ‘common’ belief that God cursed ham, NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT IMPLIES OR SAYS THIS.
    God NEVER cursed Ham and there was strog reasons to why He (God) could not. Please re-read the Bible on that matter. I have attached the quotes from the KJV.
    Noah woke up from his drunken sleep and found out what HIS younger son (Ham) had done. Now, WHAT did Noah say???
    Gen 9: 25 “And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
    26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
    27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”

    CURSE TO WHO??? Canaan or Ham? Canaan is ONLY one of Ham’s son, so then if the black race came from Ham, who said it came from Canaan’ side only??
    Also, God gave NO cusrsing, it was Noah and HE (Noah) knew well he could NOT curse Ham becasue…WHY??
    HE COULD NOT CURSE WHAT GOD HAS BLESSED so he cursed one of Ham’s son..likley the first born.
    Gen 9:1 “Ge 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”
    WHAT GOD HAS BLESSED, NO MAN CAN CURSE.
    Num 22:12 “And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they [are] blessed.”
    Now all may know that, GOD NEVER cursed HAM or CANAAN….but it was Noah who cursed Canaan.

  • Francisco Herculano

    Ok! But He gave us the SOP in order to clarify all of our doubts. Follow it, and you will have no doubts, sister.

  • MAllen

    Becky,
    are you kidding me…you actually asked Charlo where does it say that you cannot have gay pastors??? Have you ever read the Bible…you are kidding me?? How can you consider to even use this as an arguement. By the way if we were to “follow the Bible” the way our narrow thinking minds think it should be, you would not be allowd to speak in the church, and thus you or any woman should have no voice on this forum….BUT, thank Lord that is not the case and ALL male and female are allowed to speak in the church. So, if you want to argue about following the Bible, please make sure you know what tghe Bible says.
    Here you are about the ‘gay pastors’ or gay people in general. Lets remember the Bible does not use the word ‘gay’ but I am sure you can see that if any man who sleeps (have sex) with another man or a woman with another woman, should be put to death…I think that qualifies that they cannot be a pastor if they are dead or if this is the mandate by God, I don’t think anyone would apply openly admitting this…What do you think?
    Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
    Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    I undestand the point you were trying to make, but wrong choice of defense.

  • MAllen

    Sort of like the POPE in the Catholic Church, right!
    NOW, lets see what the Prophet of the Founders of the SDA says about that. She wrote it by INSTRUCTION by God, is she write and God wrong or is there a balance as she also says that we are to listen to the leaders, WHEN they follow the instructions of God, but if they dont……then below is the correct answer by HOLY SPIRIT.
    “The angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.” We see here that the men in authority are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of Bible doctrine. There are many today who feel indignant and aggrieved that any voice should be raised presenting ideas that differ from their own in regard to points of religious belief. Have they not long advocated their ideas as truth? So the priests and rabbis reasoned in apostolic days: What mean these men who are unlearned, some of them mere fishermen, who are presenting ideas contrary to the doctrines which the learned priests and rulers are teaching the people? They have no right to meddle with the fundamental principles of our faith. {TM 69.1}
    But we see that the God of heaven sometimes commissions men to teach that which is regarded as contrary to the established doctrines. Because those who
    70
    were once the depositaries of truth became unfaithful to their sacred trust, the Lord chose others who would receive the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, and would advocate truths that were not in accordance with the ideas of the religious leaders. And then these leaders, in the blindness of their minds, give full sway to what is supposed to be righteous indignation against the ones who have set aside cherished fables. They act like men who have lost their reason. They do not consider the possibility that they themselves have not rightly understood the word. They will not open their eyes to discern the fact that they have misinterpreted and misapplied the Scriptures, and have built up false theories, calling them fundamental doctrines of the faith. {TM 69.2}

  • Quentin Styger

    The chance for them to repent still exists.

    Right now we each need to be afflicting our souls to repent of EVERY sin in our lives.

    If everyone did that, then these debates would not exist and everyone would be happy with the yoke the LORD gives us and not desire after another’s yoke claiming it to be equality and unity.

    Albeit a unity does exist among those with the mind of putting the wrong people in the wrong position, that unity is large and leads to tare bundling.

  • Quentin Styger

    You won’t find one.

  • Quentin Styger

    You’re reasoning is that all men are sexual perverts and that women should be pastors too.

    A harlot helps spies escape is the perfect example of what is required for pastoral duty?

    Do keep in mind that Esther, Queen of Judea, still followed the counsels given to her by a male prophet.

    Miriam who had prophetic gifts as did Aaron and Moses was not to be a patriarch of our faith and sanctuary service.

    This isn’t because of a male dominated society, this is because of bible prescription.

    God knows what is best.

    Repent and be converted. Time is too short to dwell on the sins of others nor is there time to covet thy neighbour’s position within the church.

  • Quentin Styger

    You’re right the bible does not say not to ordain women, it says the role of bishop, elder and deacon are to be held by upstanding people in the church community and the community at large, also they are to be husband to one wife, not giving to wine drinking or lovers of filthy leucre.

    What I want to know is how any woman expects to fullfil the role of husband to one wife and still say they are in accordance with all that God commands.

  • Quentin Styger

    There is no second witness for women not speaking. There are two witnesses for the husband of one wife holding the role of bishop, elder and deacon.

    The significance of this statement can be found in Isaiah.

  • Quentin Styger

    Your interpretation of wine is at fault here, drinking grape juice with water is what Paul is prescribing.

  • Quentin Styger

    The work of Bishop then, is the work of pastor now.

  • Quentin Styger

    Husband to one wife, a woman shall not lie with another woman as though she were a man it is abomination.

    The logic is pretty clear when hysterics are removed from the equation.

  • Quentin Styger

    Question everything and believe no man? Conveniently throw out what sister white says of the GC and the authority they have been bestowed by God as His mouth piece?

    Lucifer’s argument that he was the angel responsible for the glory and praise of God, so in reality he should ascend to the throne to better carry out that work.

    Notice any similarities between the issue at hand now and back then?

  • Quentin Styger

    God technically said that the husband of one wife was to fulfil the duties of bishop (pastor), elder and deacon.

    God technically said that if a women lie with another woman as though she were a man it is abomination in His sight.

    If you put those two statements together then a woman must be the husband of one wife to hold the position and duties of bishop (pastor), elder and deacon. The moment that happens they are abominable, creating a catch 22 cycle of it can’t happen and be congruent with the word of God.

  • Quentin Styger

    1 Timothy 3:2, Husband to one wife

    Titus 1:6, Husband to one wife

    Lev 20:13 A man shall not lie with a man as though he were woman is abomination (I do believe this could be interchanged with woman lying with a woman)

    Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman 802 shall not wear that which pertaineth 3627 unto a man 1397, neither shall a man 1397 put 3847 on a woman’s 802 garment 8071: for all that do 6213 so 428 [are] abomination 8441unto the LORD 3068 thy God 430.

    If that’s just for the clothing, how much more important is that to position and title?

    Thus saith the Lord, men are to be bishop (pastor), elder and deacon.

    That would mean that no woman, ordained or otherwise should have these roles within the church.

  • Quentin Styger

    We know that when we come to the foot of the cross and give ourselves to Christ we are made Abraham’s seed.

    This translates into, we are Jews and heirs of the promises, gifts and responsibilities given in times of old.

    This being the day of atonement we have our work to do in righting ourselves with God and giving the three angels message to a dying world.

  • Quentin Styger

    It’s sifting time, time to decide to stand on the bible and the bible alone.

    Remember that our greatest adversaries will be found within the SDA church.

  • Quentin Styger

    14. That entrance upon the new life in Christ is by regeneration, or the new birth

    That’s your GC approval?

    Calling a straw a cow is a stretch.

  • Quentin Styger

    A call to prophecy an ordination does not make.

    All are called to do a work, are they all ordained?

  • Quentin Styger

    I don’t recall Jesus telling Mary to go and raise a church in his name. I don’t recall Mary saying that even the devils are subject to her.

    Jesus as our creator has had a place for both men and women to do work unique to our design.

    As the days of Adam so too in this day and age do women seek to ascend to a level of equality outside their scope of design not realizing they are already truly equal to man.

  • MAllen

    Please clarify what you are saying??? Some what confused to your point. Please forgive me

  • MAllen

    please clarify your point. i am somewhat confused as to what you are trying to say to me. forgive me

  • MAllen

    Or a man shall not lie with a another man as thou he is a woman….what is your point?

    Two sides to the coin, not one.

  • MAllen

    Qeuntin,

    what you fail to realize that there is a balance. This church was not set up like the Vatican nor is there anything in the Bible that promotes such a thing, You need to have balance for what you are doing with EG White is allowing her to coontradict herself becasaue you do not understand what she is saying.

    You see, there was balance in her statements and she addressed the corporate church based on the men when LEAD by God. Would you have follwed Saul or David? Who was the know King of Israel?
    It has not always been that the SDA church was lead by God from the General Conference and that we are to follow without question. A matter of fact she and the BIBLE teaches against such madness. There are many quotes you need to qualify that she says that the General conferenece was no longer the voice of God while at times she says we are to head to the voice of the GC.
    I will lay them before you but before that, you need to figure out what she is talking about when she says that the “church is the highest authority on earth”?? Who is the church is what you should be searching out. If you think it is the GC based on the bible and SOP, you are in a world of trouble my friend.

    Imagine if you held that view in Christ days, you would call Jesus and the Apostles heritics and condemn the same for disobeying the “church” as they where the “highest authority on earh” at the time.

    How do you qulify it all. That is the answer you need to seek out. I have one but when you are ready to hear it, I will give it, but first ask the Lord for yourself and seek not to let “flesh be your arm”

    “At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise plans and to restrict God’s work, I have said that I could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field, should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing, is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church, in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.” {GW 490.1}

    Please qulaify this with these statements also from the same person:

    “The voice from Battle Creek, which has been regarded as authority in counseling how the work should be done, is no longer the voice of God.–17MR 185 (1896). {LDE 50.2}
    It has been some years since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God.–17MR 216 (1898). {LDE 50.3} That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be–that is past.–GCB April 3, 1901, p. 25. {LDE 50.4}

    “In this step there has been a change of responsibility, but the wrong principles remain unchanged. The same work that has been done in the past will be carried forward under the guise of the General Conference Association. The sacred character of this association is fast disappearing. What will then be respected as pure, holy, and undefiled? Will there be any voice that God’s people can regard as a voice they can respect? There certainly is nothing now that bears the divine credentials. Sacred things are mixed and mingled with earthly business that has no connection with God.”–Lt 81, 1896 (SpIRHWBC 18.) {PM 142.8}

    “O, my very soul is drawn out in these things! Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,–that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle. {GCB, April 3, 1901 par. 25}

    ” “This condition of things has been created in our conferences and churches. {GCDB, February 24, 1899 par. 1} “The evil is not with one man, or with two; it is the whole that needs the cleansing and setting in order.” {GCDB, February 24, 1899 par. 2} “It has been some years since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God.” {GCDB, February 24, 1899 par. 3}
    Here is my point.
    NOT ALWAYS has EG White accpted the GC as the voice of God, so how do we qulify them now in 2012? That is a question you have to answer and how do you do this? Your LESSON is in the days of Christ and the Apostles.
    Here is a simple question to help you out.
    IF YOU WERE IN THE DAYS OF THE ASPOTLES, WHOM WOULD YOU HAVE GIVING YOUR TITHES AND OFFERING TO SUPPORT, THE ORGANIZED KNOWN LIVITICAL PRIESTHOOD (CHURCH OR WHO WE CALL THE GC TODAY) OR THE APOSTLES (THE ONES WITHOUT THE TITLES GIVEN BY THE LIVITES)?
    Think wisely, SEEK your answer from the Lord and answer with logic based on the Bible facts and not your hindsight.
    regards,
    MAllen

  • MAllen

    Blinded by the Light

  • MAllen

    Is that only we have is the three angels message to give?

    ” There is to be in the [Seventh-day Adventist] churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of the heart by confession and repentance. In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it. Because the Lord does not work according to their ideas and expectations they will oppose the work. “Why,” they say, “should we not know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?”–RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890. {LDE 209.3}
    The third angel’s message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory.–RH May 27, 1890. {LDE 210.1}

    What light is she talkin about that we have so BLINDLY REJECTED as a body??

    “…Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things, and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. There will be those among us who will always want to control the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in the message to be given to the world. God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness.–Testimonies to Ministers, p. 300. (1885) {Ev 118.1}
    Look up the quotes, figure it out for yourself. The Lord is waiting to help you.
    Regards,
    MAllen

  • MAllen

    Will it be coming from the congregation or the pulpit?

    “Young men should search the Scriptures for themselves. They are not to feel that it is sufficient for those older in experience to find out the truth; that the younger ones can accept it from them as authority. The Jews perished as a nation because they were drawn from the truth of the Bible by their rulers, priests, and elders. Had they heeded the lessons of Jesus, and searched the Scriptures for themselves, they would not have perished. {GW92 128.4}

    “…We must study the truth for ourselves. No man should be relied upon to think for us. No matter who he is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a criterion for us. We are to counsel together, and to be subject one to another; but at the same time we are to exercise the ability God has given us, in order to learn what is truth. Each one of us must look to God for divine enlightenment. We must individually develop a character that will stand the test in the day of God. We must not become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.” {GW92 129.2}

    “When a point of doctrine that you do not understand comes to your attention, go to God on your knees, that you may understand what is truth, and not be found as were the Jews, fighting against God. While warning men to beware of accepting anything unless it is truth, we should also warn them not to imperil their souls by rejecting messages of light, but to press out of the darkness by earnest study of the word of God.” {GW92 129.3}

    BUT HERE IS THE BEAUTY OF GOD AND HIS MERCY.

    “Notwithstanding Israel’s failure as a nation, there remained among them a goodly remnant of such as should be saved.” {AA 377}

  • MAllen

    Maybe you missed this one since you gave reply

  • Quentin Styger

    Your point was, that the bible has a comment about women not speaking, are we to follow that too, my point is that there is only one scripture which speaks about women talking in the church and has two different scriptures speaking about the role of men as pastor, elder and deacon.

    Isaiah 28 teaches us that we must look at scripture precept upon precept and line upon line

    Deuteronomy teaches us that out of the mouth of two witnesses let a matter be established but out of the mouth of one witness in opposition let it not be established.

    My point is that the bible has two witnesses establishing that the roles of bishop (pastor), elder and deacon are to be held by men, while the there are not two witnesses saying women should not speak.

  • Quentin Styger

    You asked for clarification on this point three separate times, I have addressed it in one of the posts.

  • Quentin Styger

    The third angel’s message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory.–RH May 27, 1890. {LDE 210.1}

    You tell me.

  • Quentin Styger

    My tithe goes to the storehouse God has told me to give it to, just as Jesus paid His tithe, so I pay mine.

    I get it, you hate the church and you believe it’s time the women of the church take over and help bring about the finalization of God’s work.

    It is not biblical for women to fill the roles of, bishop (pastor), elder and deacon.

    I agree the roles aren’t properly filled as is, the church, as a movement, has lost the way and God will fix this, starting judgement at His sanctuary, judging His priests with sword first.

    Your accusations of hindsight are short sighted, the bible is clear on the role of women, if the GC decided women should be performing the duties of pastor, elder and deacon it would not change my mind on biblical understanding, nor would it change my opinion.

  • Quentin Styger

    My point is that the role of bishop (pastor), elder and deacon are to be the husband of one wife.

    For a woman to be husband to one wife would violate the, “woman shall not lie with a women as though she were a man.”

    That makes it impossible for a woman to meet the criteria established in both Timothy and Titus.

  • Jimmy

    Stupid reasoning. You are basing your ridiculous belief on a phrase that is not intended to be universal policy. When talking to men, you refer to male issues. This is joke right??

  • Jia Tang

    Quentin, you are in opposition to God’s will and seduced by culture. You are not the church. No constituency has agreed with you. The GC does not agree with you. No rationale person does and there is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth did either. He actually opposes your view.

  • MAllen

    Quentin to stated, “nor would it change my opinion”

    Definition of the word “Opinion”

    o·pin·ion   /əˈpɪnyən/ Show Spelled[uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA

    Noun
    1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

    2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

    I try not to give opinions and by ‘definition’ you are right on your position.

    My brother you are all over the place and in time it will prove you contradicting yourself, so i will ride you out.

    First of all I asked you a question about the “days of the Apostles, not the days of Christ. We are dealing with two different era. The days of Christ without a doubt the tithes were paid to the “known” leadership at that time, the Sanhedrin counsel consisting of the Pharasee and the Saducees. From this it was the “corrupted appointed leaders of men”.

    When Christ ascended all that changed and thus there were two leaderships at the time, one appointed by men and one ordained by God, unrecognized by the known leaders and persecuted to death by them. My question that you so cleverly tried to evade, was who would you paid your tithes to, the appointed of men or the appointed of God?

    What is my point…you blindly follow the teachings as the people did back then, but now step forward as if your thoughts are you own. Malcom X stated “Who prescribes your knowledge, prescribes the circumference of your knowledge”

    Hindsight men today would say the Apostles, but if they were honest based on their attitude today, they would say the “corrupted leaders chosen of men”

    You accuse me of hating the ‘church’, but if you would look at my posting all over this site, especially to Dr Ron Stone, you would repent of those unfounded accusation. My position has always been that of David and Saul respecting the Nathaniel’s and Nicodemus’s. Figure that one out for yourself.

    “Hate the church”. Wow, this is when people run out of intelligent reasoning, they turn to character attacks. Please deal with me intelligently and not by emotional outbursts.

    I played 7 years a professional football player and gave it all up, glory, money and all in the height of my career to “return” back to the Lord and this church I was raised in. My brother you have no idea who you are talking to when it comes to love for God and the SDA church, so please sit silent on the matter. We will stick to the matter at hand.

  • MAllen

    Answer the statements about the GC not always been the “voice of God” you seems to make blatant statements and when answered with the bible or SOP you dodge them and bring other points to evade the answers

  • MAllen

    Hypocrisy! Hypocrisy! Hypocrisy!

    You just said earlier:

    “Conveniently throw out what sister white says of the GC and the authority they have been bestowed by God as His mouth piece?”

    Now you say:

    “if the GC decided women should be performing the duties of pastor, elder and deacon it would not change my mind on biblical understanding, nor would it change my opinion.”

    If the GC is God’s”mouth piece” as YOU claim, you are now saying you would disobey God’s instructions!

    Contradiction! Contradiction! Contradiction!

  • Jane Thomas

    I don’t know what LDE is and I don’t care. This is not supported in the Bible literally or metaphorically..

  • MAllen

    You stated:

    “This being the day of atonement we have our work to do in righting ourselves with God and giving the three angels message to a dying world.”

    How many Angels are there EG White is talking about? I asked you about the Angels and since an Angel denotes a “Message”, which Angel’s “Message” is EG White talking about that lightens the earth, that you claim we must be giving to the dying world?

  • Quentin Styger

    Which part?

    If you mean women in the church you may want to take a look at Timothy and Titus before you make such wild accusations.

  • Quentin Styger

    Take a look at the whole of Timothy and Titus, women aren’t supposed to hold the position.

    Not just because of husband to one wife, because of the whole list of criteria.

  • Quentin Styger

    If you look further up the thread you’ll understand where the whole conversation is coming from.

    LDE is Last Day Events.

  • MAllen

    My Dear Sister Jane, please do not let Quentin throw you off on this matter. The quote is correct from the writings of EG White and does carry a lot weight when used in it’s proper context. You deeply should care about the quote by EG White, just not Quentin’s personal “opinions”.

  • MAllen

    If you was paying attention I was trying to make the point that thou the Bible says about women, Paul was not saying it was to be. I was not advocating it, I was asking the question rhetorically. Paul was reading a letter he received from the new converts that wanted the women to be silent. He read the letter and then addressed it by saying, “God forbid” and also with some other questions. Point been, if I agree with WO, why would I advocate women’s not speaking in the church. This is why I was confused with your statement.

    Your point also does not hold correct as well for there are many things n the bible where it makes mention of a point only once. Does it then make that point not true?

    Have you ever consider the possibility that we take things and turn them to our own doctrines?

    Maybe you should look up the words minister, deacon, elder, and pastor see what the original meaning were of these names before we jump to the conclusion that this is what God meant.

    You don’t see the circular reasoning that the Bible ORDAINS female Judges to rule Israel, female prophets as messengers from God to lead Israel BUT they cannot be a pastor….what a laughter to supposedly intelligent people. Reason with dignity please.

    So men appointing men to rule a church has more power than The Holt Spirit (Ruach which is feminine in the Hebrew) ordaining a woman as the voice of God to the very men who was appointed by other men?? If they were to listen to God by these women prophets, are they then not been led by women, so what is the arguing point? Is it that women can’t run the church or take the position as a lesser pastor but a higher position as a prophet?

    And you all call this intelligent reasoning……wow

  • MAllen

    Quentin,

    the point Jia is trying to make that you are so blinded with was the fact that, the issue back then was by culture no different that the position you are taking now.

    You would have argued the law of ‘divorce’ with Christ the same way, but what did Jesus say? “Moses allowed you to write a writ of divorce, but it was NOT SO FROM THE BEGINNING, but because of the HARDNESS of your hearts….”

    Bottom line is that men took the writings of Moses and placed it as the Law of God, so Christ said, God “allowed” it but it was NOT ‘ordained” to be so, but because of the stupid attitudes of the ‘men” that he allowed it be so, as it is today, until Christ came to reveal the truth on the matter.

    Have you searched to see if God has chosen anyone after the Bible to see if it is so, that Paul wrote to Titus and Timothy? It is simple, if there was any ordained women in the days of one of the prophets of the SDA church, then you have your answer. if that prophet made no correction on the matter, then you need to correct her credibility. I for one believe 100% in EG White’s credibility.

  • MAllen

    Was it only men out of the 120 that was in the upper room during Pentecost?

    What is and who is the church then and now? Be careful how you answer this as how you may contradict yourself from another posting.

  • MAllen

    Ordained

    or·dain   /ɔrˈdeɪn/ Show Spelled[awr-deyn] Show IPA

    verb (used with object)

    1. to invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; confer holy orders upon.

    2. to enact or establish by law, edict, etc.: to ordain a new type of government.

    3. to decree; give orders for: He ordained that the restrictions were to be lifted.

    4. (of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine: Fate had ordained the meeting.

    Since the word carries various meaning, showing it can apply to many various situation, let’s figure which one was EG White and the order of God’s authority.

    Deut 28:6 [It is] a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

    1 King 12:32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that [is] in Judah, and he offered upon the altar.

    2 Chron 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel.

    Psa8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

    Jer 1:4-5 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    John15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Acts13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    1Tim2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.”

    and many more……

    here is my point. YOU cannot say who or what is ORDAINED of God. That is for God and the Holy Spirit. EG White was ORDAINED of God, not only for prophecy but to teach the Righteousness of Christ in all things.

    Anyone called of God to do a work IS ordained by definition and it has nothing to do with the laying of hands. Baptism is by the water is an outward expression to the people, and the Spirit is an inward expression to God. You can baptise all you want with water, but if there is no Spirit the baptism is accounted as NOTHING. One that is ORDAINED of God and, one that of man does not mean that God accepts that of the man no different than God not accepting the leadership in Christ’s days.

    Your point is without foundation but only an “Opinion”

  • Jimmy

    Ha ha ha. Truly hilarious. I love the way you ignore Jesus of Nazareth. Read what he said again and see the message. There is no hierarchy!!!! He broke down every cultural paradigm of power. Your manipulation of scripture (making it mean something it is against) is the worst kind of hypocrisy. “…whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of Eternal sin.” Please stop.

  • Jia Tang

    Adam, the reason we argue is that we are defending scripture. No evidence to support anyone being ordained to our human org chart exists. Stop the lying, the whining, and the sin. There is a mountain of scripture – in fact it is the purpose of Jesus ministry – to break down the human chasms, power struggles, distinctions hear and in the Kingdom. Caste off your culture conditioning; Caste off your fear; Caste off your male domination belief. Accept the Gospel and return to the Adventist Church,

  • Jane Thomas

    LDE still doesn’t mean anything to me. As I mentioned you are way off from the Bible as the vast number of humans know.

  • Quentin Styger

    If you look up the thread you will see I’m using the previous persons argument to make a point to them and not you.

    Next, if you look in the book of Revelation you will see the cries of three angels, the third of which is telling people to get out of religious confusion (Babylon) and not to worship the beast and her image.

    It is kind of an important message.

  • Quentin Styger

    Considering the letter to Timothy and Titus by Paul were after Christ’s ascension to heaven, there must be validity, unless you’re trying to say Paul was working against Christ in those letters.

  • Quentin Styger

    Correct, I never disputed ordination.

    All I have said is that the job, position and title (all 3 together and in their individual parts) of bishop (pastor), elder and deacon can’t be held by women according to scripture.

  • Quentin Styger

    Women were in the upper room at Pentecost along with men.

    They were not apostles were they? We do not see after Pentecost women raising churches do we? Not even in Thesolonica where many of the wealthy converts were women did Paul say raise up leaders from them, no he said do as I have taught you and shown you.

    I don’t know what your point is, women have not been given the role by God to become bishops (pastors), elders or deacons and while all are called to be priests of God, they are not all called to those special positions.

  • Quentin Styger

    The three angels message from the book of Revelation, calling out God’s people from Babylon.

    You may not realize it, but there is a lot of religious confusion in the world and people need to be called back to following biblical doctrine and preparing for the return of Christ.

    That three angels message is the one I refer to.

  • Quentin Styger

    Ellen White was not a bishop (pastor), elder or deacon. Timothy and Titus still stand that God has not called women into those positions.

    The bible is pretty clear to me, except in the case of adultery, there is no divorce.

    You don’t know me well enough to know how I would have talked to Jesus if I had been alive during His time.

  • Quentin Styger

    The apostles gave and the people they led to Christ gave their tithes into the storehouse of the growing church, they furthered the spread of the word of God.

    Jesus example still holds true during this time period and as we have been shown the SDA movement is to be the last, this movement is still where tithe should go from my understanding of all the examples of tithe through out the bible.

    So if you don’t “hate” the church what is the point your trying to make by causing discension within it?

  • Quentin Styger

    You would put prophet and pastor as equal positions of authority and then laugh at me and say I have no dignity?

    I suppose your rule for character attacks holds true for you then.

    Thanks for your opinion of my intellect and dignity.

  • MAllen

    Wow…
    Do not muddy the waters. This is not a debate, and if you would like to win the debate and have the last word, then have it.

    The point is that you give the impression that a man can appoint another man to a position as a “pastor” of less authority than of a prophet, yet God appoints women as prophets of a higher calling, yet a man cannot appoint a woman to a lesser position!!!
    This is what am I am saying is not an intelligent reasoning.

    I NEVER said they are of the same authority. My point is that they are not and yet you put the man appointing a man above God appointing a woman. Who are you to say that God did not call a certain woman to the post of pastor.

    Answer this in the light of the following quote from EGWhite?

    Testimonies to Ministers, page 300 beginning with

    “….Let me tell you The Lord will work in the last work in a manner very much out of the COMMON order of things, and in a way contrary to human planning….” (High casing added for emphasis)

    If you believe this was an attack on your person, then an apology is at hand, but I see nothing in what I have said to be such. If you reason this to be so, then so that you not be offended, then my respectful apologies.

    Proverbs 9:8-9

    Let us not muddy the waters and misquote me. The Bible calls this use a “lie”

  • Darlene Garza

    Yes, and I can see where Quentin, had already been told the same thing by a male, after he attacked me! God wouldn’t call Deborah, Huldah& Miriam, to teach, lead&teach rule over, if it was against His Own Laws, He can’t ever not even temporarily break His laws, it would void His Covenant . So therefore, the law never said a man rule over women, never said a women couldn’t teach, never said a women couldn’t be in authority. And in Rom. 10:9 the Elder was the word translated wrongly, in Gen. The story. , he was called the Eldest, and older one! The word Elder, always meant pastor or church leaders! In Titus 2:1-3 regular members, who were older were called Aged men & Aged Women. But, in 1Tim.2:1-3&1Peter5:1-4 was speaking about Elders as Pastors, both MALES&FEMALES younger ones respecting the Aged ones! But all of them are Elders as in Pastors! God’s doing a New Thing! This is God showing His approval, by even using this anolagy, I think you need to repent, male chauvinist !!

  • MAllen

    They also told Jesus and his disciples that they also were also causing dissension. This is usually the poor argument used when one does not have an answer.

    They whipped them, called them heretics and did all manner of evil against them claiming to be protecting the church.
    I have more than enough Bible and EGWhite quotes but not enough space to enter them. If you desire I can.

    You answered none of the above statements that I gave to your question or your statements. Why is this? Yet you change the subjects each time you have no answer.

    Can you please go back and make a point form of the questions and answers I gave to your points and address them as I have fairly done to yours, or we debate for strife.

    Once you have done this I will come back and easily address your last statement.
    Thank you

  • MAllen

    Many thought it was very clear in the Bible that it was ok to enslave Africans because of the mark set on Ham, and reasoned it for hundred of years to the death of 50 million Africans on passage and landed in the United States. Because you think something in the Bible is”so clear” does not make it clear. You see what you want to see to your own destruction.

    How we act and reason today will tell how we would
    Have acted and reasoned in days past. Based on the manner in which you reason today, Lets say I am glad I am not in contact with you if we both lived before the US Civil war.

  • MAllen

    Correction …..not the mark set on Ham but the curse set on Ham. By the way Noah NEVER cursed Ham.

  • MAllen

    First of all if go back to the book of Rev you will see that there is more than 3 angels and if you go back to LDE and EW you will see that there is specific mention of another Angel that “joins” the third angel with a message that gives power and force to the third angels message as the midnight cry gave power and force to the second angels message…..so then what are these messages that are to come and give power to the third angels message? If it does not come how can you say you can bring the third angel message to the world when it has no power and force it needs according the SOP?

  • MAllen

    Please read Testimoies to the Church 5 under the section “The Seal of God” with Vol 3 page 266-267 and qualify it with your statement ” telling the people to get out of Babylon”

    I await your answer according to the Bible and the SOP

  • MAllen

    no answers to my request below

  • MAllen

    If you agree by definition then you contradict yourself by your position

  • MAllen

    You still did not answer my questions as to who was the church then and now?

    I will answer your opinions later once I get my questions answered

  • tom thomas

    Quentin just has a strong belief that he spends all his time trying to justify without any foundation. Inconsistencies or logic does not play into it. The belief itself is proof of that. It is hypocrisy. Get behind us Satan!

  • Quentin Styger

    The bible is clear about the role of women.

    I am referring to Timothy and TItus.

    Should the GC ever decide to go against what is in the bible I would not be able to stand with them.

    Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another, so far, I do all I have said.

  • Quentin Styger

    1 Timothy 3
    1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
    6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
    8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
    9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
    10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
    11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
    12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
    13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Titus 1
    1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
    4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
    5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
    6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
    9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
    11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
    12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
    14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
    16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    Where in the bible does it establish prophets as greater than pastors?

  • Quentin Styger

    Wrong.

    I have always positioned myself as saying, women are not to perform the role of pastor, elder or deacon.

    I have not been speaking about ordination in general, any person can be ordained by God to do things other than pastor, deacon, elder.

  • Quentin Styger

    The fourth angel repeats what all three angels are saying, the message is still the same.

  • Quentin Styger

    You asked about my tithe, I discussed my tithe.

    I have no idea what you’re trying to infer here.

    Maybe you can tell me where your tithe goes and enlighten me on your point.

  • Quentin Styger

    Talking about you hating the church was the previous comment.

    I didn’t know I needed to address your 7 year football career.

    Or comment on your Malcolm X statement.

    I’m not going to.

    When Ellen White was approached on the subject of ordination and it was contested she said to leave it alone and not to make an issue of it.

    Here we are well over a century later and all of you are making an issue of this by trying to change it now.

  • MAllen

    WOW

  • Quentin Styger

    The church then is wherever God’s followers could congregate, people’s homes and assemblies.

    Who is the church? People who follow God.

  • Quentin Styger

    Don’t know why you’re replying to me about Noah or Ham as I have yet to mention them in any thread.

  • Quentin Styger

    I don’t see anything in the bible to support your claims, I’m glad we don’t live in US Civil War times. I understand running water was an issue.

  • MAllen

    Two things..First you did CONTRADICT YOURSELF BOTTOM LINE, and everyone here sees it. BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF.

    You said that the GC is the voice of God and then you said if they did not follow Tim and Titus as YOU interpret it, you would not follow them. That is a CONTRADICTION my brother…don’t be so blind. You noted the definition of “hypocrisy” but not that of CONTRADICTION, why not???

    If the GC is the voice of God, then why would God go against His own voice is the question? If you said it is not always the voice of God all the time, then I can understand your answer, BUT YOU DID CONTRADICT yourself….please stop digging yourself in a hole deeper than you have already dug.

    My second question is this text.

    Romans 16: 1 ” I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a SERVANT of the church which is at Cenchrea:” (the word “servant” in high case added for emphasis)

    Go to the Strongs Bible translation to find out the meaning of the word “servant” in the context used in this verse and you will see that it makes no difference in calling her a DEAON or MINISTER…

    Since you may not have a STRONG’S HEBREW & GREEK dictionary, I copied and paste it for you. You are welcome to go online and look it up for yourself, then copy and paste it back to me what you found on that sentence and use of the word “servant”.

    Here you are. The word “servant” in this verse in the Bible is number 1249 which is translated “deacon” 8 times and a “minister 20 times in the Bible.

    Now, how do you answer this? Will you now throw out the Hebrew language and Greek which the Bible was originally written to suit your own misguided position? My brother you have no other choice but to concede on this matter. Phebe was a WOMAN.

    1249 διακονος diakonos dee-ak’-on-os

    probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, cf 1377); TDNT-2:88,152; n m/f

    AV-minister 20, servant 8, deacon 3; 31

    1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

    1a) the servant of a king

    1b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

    1c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

    For Synonyms see entry 5834 & 5928

    I will send you more if you are still STUBBURN

  • MAllen

    Again you missed the point…the question did not have anything to do with where you put your tithes today. It was based on the attitude of where your heart is, your loyalty will be. Where you pay your tithes if you where in the DAYS of the Apostles, will tell what you will do today, if new light came out against the teachings of the GC.

    Read what I wrote. I don’t care who you pay your tithes to today. DO NOT MISQUOTE my statements or questions.

    I just know this, based on your illogical reasoning on this site, you would have given your tithes to the “Jewish Rabbis” in their days, instead of the Apostles and “MAY” have participated in the nailing of Christ, the stoning of Steven and the lives of the others as they (Apostles) went against the teaching of the “Established, VOTED” church under the Jewish leaders. YOUR attitude today is the same is my point, blinded by your willful ignorance.

  • MAllen

    You still not have answered my questions about the “GC been the voice of God always” DO NOT EVADE the questions. Deal with the quotes above from EG WHITE….Do not try and twist my questions. Copy and paste them in point form and answer each one as stated if you are HONEST

  • MAllen

    Hello Tom,

    I am fully aware of “Who” is guiding his reason, as the Lord is NOT the author of confusion. I told him earlier that it was a matter of time before he contradicted himself with his type of non biblical reasoning, and i was going to wait him out…didn’t take long, did it?

  • MAllen

    You stated earlier in your statements to me above:

    “You would put prophet and pastor as equal positions of authority and then laugh at me and say I have no dignity?”

    Now you state:

    “Where in the bible does it establish prophets as greater than pastors?”

    Are you not in the first statement saying that they are NOT EQUAL and now you are asking me where does it say that the prophets are greater???

    If they are not equal and the prophets are not greater, then are you saying the pastors are greater?? THIS is the ONLY conclusion you can come to based on your reasoning or you AGAIN CONTRADICT YOURSELF.

    Keep going, I am sure there is more. Others are watching. I believe a brother by the name of Tom Thomas wieghed in on your “logic” already

  • MAllen

    With all due respect Quentin, I don’t want you to comment on my “football career” or “Malcolm X” statements as THEY WERE NOT QUESTIONS. Just answer the QUESTIONS and stop being…..a child of Him that deceiveth. Don’t play the FOOL, you are not impressing anyone. All you are doing is exposing who you really are. Please be a Christian.

    Prov 23:9 “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.”

    Prov17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: [and] he that shutteth his lips [is esteemed] a man of understanding.

    Pslam 92:5 “O LORD, how great are thy works! [and] thy thoughts are very deep. 92:6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.”

    Prov 10:23 “[It is] as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.”

    Prov 12:15 “The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise. 12:16 A fool’s wrath is presently known: but a prudent [man] covereth shame.”

    Prov 13:16 “Every prudent [man] dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open [his] folly.”

    Prov 17:10 “A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.”

    Prov 18:2 “A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.”

  • MAllen

    EG White Quote…doing exactly this say as witnessed by all.

    “Some have thought it an evidence of intellectual keenness and superiority to perplex minds in regard to what is truth. They resort to subtlety of argument, to playing upon words; they take unjust advantage in asking questions. When their questions have been fairly answered, they will turn the subject, bring up another point, to avoid acknowledging the truth. We should beware of indulging the spirit which controlled the Jews. They would not learn of Christ, because his explanation of the Scriptures did not agree with their ideas; therefore they became spies upon his track, “laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.” [Luke 11:54, 52.] Let us not bring upon ourselves the fearful denunciation of the Saviour’s words, “Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.” [Luke 11:54, 52.] {GW92 128.2}

    “It does not require much learning or ability to ask questions that are difficult to answer. A child may ask questions over which the wisest men may be puzzled. Let us not engage in a contest of this kind. The very same unbelief exists in our time as prevailed in the days of Christ. Now as then the desire for preferment and the praise of men leads people away from the simplicity of true godliness. There is no pride so dangerous as spiritual pride.” {GW92 128.3}

  • MAllen

    Prov 23:9 “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.”

    Prov17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: [and] he that shutteth his lips [is esteemed] a man of understanding.

  • MAllen

    Again it will be repeated when I get a folish reply.

    Prov 23:9 “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.”

    Prov17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: [and] he that shutteth his lips [is esteemed] a man of understanding.

  • MAllen

    Some as they all repeat each other over and over as they advance. Give me the quotes why you state this. If they are the same, then why is the “vast majority of the SDA will reject it in the last days” ?

    How is it that one can delivery this message in the church to the world when the vast majority in the church and the leaders themselves don’t even know what this message is…WHAT IS IT. What is this message? Any foolish answers will be pasted.

  • MAllen

    Prov 23:9 “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.”

    Prov17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: [and] he that shutteth his lips [is esteemed] a man of understanding.

  • MAllen

    Can you limit God…He can ordain anyone to do what every he wants…WOW…who are you to limit what God can and wont do..the only thing we for sure can say He cannot do is LIE…like what you have been doing with your contradictions

  • Jia Tang

    Quentin is so wrong. It is not Biblical or Christian. It is evil to its’ core. God ordains who he wants and the whole Bible demonstrates this. The Bible highlights female leadership in amazing way for an ancient document. That is VERY significant for those who understand the literature. The reason this is not Christian is that if we actually believe and follow Christ, we reject any notion of a Kingdom hierarchy, we become like children, we value the leadership of all whom God has chosen – the least of these. Read the Gospels!!!! The position of “women are not to perform the role of pastor, elder or deacon.” is anti-Christian and based on misuse of Scripture and cultural norms introduced by Diablo.

  • Quentin Styger

    Disfellowship is a necessity in our church, it needs to be done prayerfully and in accordance with all the Bible principles lest wheat be lost with the tares.

  • Quentin Styger

    Indeed the fruits of the proponents for this change in doctrine are sadly evident.

    They were asked to wait until the findings were released before proceeding with this, in direct defiance to patience and long-suffering they have pushed to have it their way, right now, irregardless of the disunity they have caused by their actions.

    Surely this is a troublous time for the militant remnant church.

  • Quentin Styger

    Donna is correct, when in doubt the Bible is our resource, SoP is the little light which points to the greater light.

    Conveniently enough, the two don’t ever disagree, although many people will say otherwise.